Letters of Intent

[Pankaj Raval] (0:00 - 0:21)
Welcome back to Letters of Intent, the podcast for deal makers and risk takers. I am Pankaj Raval, the founder of Carbon Law Group, and we are the firm that helps founders and creators protect what they create and build with confidence. We're here today with my co-host, Sahil Chaudry, and our special guest, which you're going to hear great things about, Mark Korshak.

Sahil, take it away.

[Sahil Chaudry] (0:22 - 0:46)
I'm Sahil Chaudry, corporate attorney at Carbon Law Group. I'm always looking for the human side behind the most fascinating deal makers, and we have one today. I've known Mark since we were kids, and I've seen him wheel and deal his way through many different projects, ventures.

He's an entrepreneur. He's an executive in the film industry. I've really admired his ability to take risk and make deals, so it's a pleasure to have him on.

Mark, welcome.

[Mark Korshak] (0:47 - 0:49)
Thank you, guys. I'm excited to be here.

[Sahil Chaudry] (0:49 - 1:16)
I want to start off by just talking about you produced a recent Netflix film, Incoming, which hit number one on the Netflix platform. You've worked across Indian studio projects, and it seems like your career is about navigating a very chaotic industry, but with a lot of clarity. We'll come back to Incoming and your other successes, but I want to start with your personal journey.

So, where did your interest in film and storytelling begin?

[Mark Korshak] (1:16 - 2:56)
Well, I took a little bit of a circuitous path. I mean, I grew up here with you, Sahil, obviously, and I was somebody who liked movies and obviously grew up around a lot of entertainment folks and peers whose parents are in the business and skipped a generation of my family. So I wasn't enamored with it as a kid.

Growing up, I wasn't like, oh, I need to be a film producer. I want to work in Hollywood. I kind of fell into it in Wisconsin, of all places, went to school in Madison, had the opportunity to transfer to USC after my first year, didn't end up doing that.

And then my senior year, I put together a documentary, really to try and give myself a job skill set because I had a job offer in DC waiting for me. And so I thought, you know, I've had a lot of ideas throughout my life. I'm just going to see this one through.

And I read a book in high school called They March in the Sunlight, and it was about how my parents' generation protested the war in Iraq, or excuse me, in Vietnam. And that helped end the war. And I went to the Capitol one day and I saw like four hippies protesting.

I was like, what's wrong with my generation that we're not protesting the Iraq war? Here on the same campus, you know, that 40 years ago helped serve as a catalyst to shut down and kind of end the Vietnam War. And so I just thought, OK, I'm going to go make a documentary about this and ended up doing exactly that and kind of falling into this path and getting some validation along the way, which has helped keep me on this path because it's never a straightforward, easy route.

[Sahil Chaudry] (2:57 - 3:32)
Absolutely. I mean, I think we're pretty familiar with clients in the creative industries, and it feels like a very nonlinear path. It seems like a path where you have to have a lot of strength of character to push through.

So after your can you tell us a little bit about that first documentary producing that? I mean, was the challenge was it? It must have been difficult, but it seems like it wasn't insurmountable.

And then that catalyzed the rest of your career. And was there any part of you making that documentary that that wanted to say, you know what, forget it, this is way too hard and this is way too hard of a career. What was it that kept you going?

[Mark Korshak] (3:32 - 6:38)
Well, I should have said that, but I was having a little too much fun. And I really looked at it as kind of this entrepreneurial journey of like, I'm going to see this idea through. And I think this is going to help me in my career in politics and law.

And that was the path I thought I was going down. And I did have an interesting conversation. One of the students that I was working with and one of my friends at the time was this woman, Jamie Abrams, whose father was Jim Abrams, who went to Wisconsin and who was a prolific comedy producer and made movies like Airplane and they could gone with the Zucker brothers and was just the kind of one of the kings of parody.

And one day she just put me on the phone with him and he basically said to me, I heard you want to be a producer. And I said, I guess I mean, I'm doing this documentary. I'm not really sure, but like this has been a fun process.

And again, I never took a phone class. I just kind of assembled a group of like-minded peers and said, we're going to figure this out. And some of them had different skill sets that lent itself better to this process.

And what I did, I kind of was learning on the fly and I ended up getting everybody credit so we all could kind of enjoy it and everyone have a little skin in the game. And one thing that Jim Abrams said to me that really stuck with me was a producer should be the dumbest guy in the room. And I was like, okay, I'm picking up on what you're putting down.

I mean, you want to surround yourself with smarter people. It's exactly what I did during this process. And that is something that I feel like I could do for the rest of my life and just have a sense of humor about it and realize that your idea may not always be the best one.

Sometimes you feel like it is, even if it's not, and putting your ego aside and just doing what's best for the project. But really, at the end of the day, a producer is just kind of a stopgap and making sure that the vision kind of is seen through. And that project was more my vision.

So I was kind of the last man standing on it. But I did have this great documentary film director who was one of the original kind of documentarians on YouTube and made a documentary about finding his birth parents. And he happened to be a peer at Wisconsin with me and a friend of a friend.

And so I brought him on board to help do the documentary. And at the time, I mean, his documentary short about finding his birth parents, I have like 20,000 views. That was a big deal in like, because YouTube was just so early stage.

And that was like, considered a viral video. So he helped really shape this narrative and this documentary. And, you know, he was in it with me, too.

And I think at the very end, I kind of was just me and an editor, trying to get it across the finish line into film festivals. But everybody was, you know, pleasure to work with. And just it helped me realize, like, you just got to be there to kind of make sure nothing slips through the cracks.

[Sahil Chaudry] (6:39 - 6:53)
So, okay, you start with this documentary. How does that I mean, eventually, you're dealing with budgets in the millions. And how do you translate that documentary into a career?

What was the next step?

[Mark Korshak] (6:54 - 7:51)
So at the time, reality TV was kind of all the rage and entertainment. And I mean, in hindsight, it was approaching the tail end of that peak. So I worked on a show that came to Wisconsin, an MTV show, again, another example of a media conglomerate that was kind of the end of its peak.

Yeah, but they had the show called college life. And it was just basically college kids filming themselves. And it was a great idea in principle.

But these kids didn't really know what they're doing. So I was kind of helping them. But it was like a very informal.

I wasn't even like a producer or anything on the show. I was just like helping some of the students and some of the producers, because, you know, they were a few years older than the students. And I was still like pretty much the same age as I mean, they were freshmen at the time.

I was either a senior or I just graduated doing my documentary because I ended up sticking around another six months because I got a grant from the university. But I'm sorry. Remind me what the question was.

I got old.

[Sahil Chaudry] (7:51 - 8:04)
Yeah, I was saying, how did you take? I mean, you're taking a documentary. And then today, you're dealing with budgets and the millions and you're making feature films.

How do you go? What was the next major milestone for you in your career from that documentary?

[Mark Korshak] (8:05 - 10:19)
Yeah, so it was leveraging that documentary into a grant that I got from the University of Wisconsin to do like a media campaign around student activism, trying to engage students. And ultimately, I basically turned that into a nonprofit. And we did some kind of Man on the Street interview series with CNN.

And we were able to, you know, build this out and kind of keep a foot and start kind of steering this more toward reality TV where I saw a potential future for myself because I didn't see a future as being like a nonprofit media director because there just wasn't enough to support myself there. So I really kind of got into the reality TV scape from there, ended up kind of starting over at the bottom as a PA, working my way up. I mean, literally cleaning toilets on shows.

But a lot of the producers I was working with, I'd formed a relationship with and like, look, you'll do great in this business. Like, you'll be one of us in the next few years. And, you know, I'm like, I'm not above anything, though.

Like, literally, anything, I know I need a job. I've done this kind of docu-series type work. But I want to learn kind of the ropes of reality television.

And I did that. And, you know, I worked on The Voice and some other bigger shows for bigger producers like Mark Burnett, who I had less FaceTime with, but got to kind of see how the machine worked. And then ultimately from there, I jumped to Summit Series because the guy that started, lived across the hall from me freshman year and did that for about six months, tried to help them build out a media strategy and plan for their content.

They weren't really as focused on that at the time. So ended up leaving and putting together my first movie when I got back. So again, very nonlinear in terms of how this all happened for me.

And I think that everyone you talk to is going to have a very different story of their path. There's no two same paths, but mine was certainly, you know, a bit of a zigzaggy road. So it sounds like your career started from an almost...

[Sahil Chaudry] (10:19 - 11:05)
Well, not almost. I mean, your career started as an entrepreneur launching your own documentary or producing your own documentary. And then eventually you're working on these different shows, The Voice, for example.

And then I know at one point you make it as an executive at Lakeshore Entertainment. And it seems like you become like an entrepreneur and you launch the off the dock segment of that business where you bring this vision of, you know, creators are a big thing and you take that and you blend it with this traditional studio model. Can you talk about how you blended that entrepreneurial spirit within this more corporate environment?

[Mark Korshak] (11:05 - 13:20)
Well, I'll take you back for one second because the movie that I first put together was It's a Disaster. And I was an executive producer on that. And similar to my reality, documentary reality TV job, there was two steps forward, one step back.

I went from executive producing it to PA'ing at Lakeshore and just starting over. Because what I realized is you have to go institutional. You have to really kind of get a foot in the door somewhere.

So I spent about two to three years at Lakeshore working my way up the ladder and then eventually started my own vision, as you mentioned, off the dock. And just saw this opportunity in this white space at the time as kind of the first wave of this, like, what we're now calling the creator economy. But then was kind of an influencer bubble.

Vine, rest in peace. It's no longer around. But that was all and all these influencers got their support.

And so there was a movie called Camp Dakota and a movie called Expelled, where basically the thinking was these were models upon which you could build off a film slate. And you could take influencers and sell to 1% of their fans. I knew that was bullshit between us, between us friends here and whoever's listening.

And I also knew, okay, this is my ticket to go cut my teeth and get movies made. And I can stay a step ahead of the market and sell them for more than I'm making them for. And one of my goals was to work with the director.

I had previously worked with Todd Berger and eventually I was able to kind of do that, which was great and bring that into Lakeshore. Like when I came into Lakeshore, I was like, I don't know how this company makes $30 million movies on average. Todd Berger is writing million dollar movies, but somehow, some way I'm gonna figure out a way to make his next project here.

So it all kind of came full circle a few years later. And I was able to go off and make cover versions, his next film, but doing it more with TV stars, child actors who had social followings as opposed to influencers, because again, I wanted the execution to be there. And I couldn't go make cover versions with just some buying star because it just wouldn't have worked to do nuance.

[Pankaj Raval] (13:20 - 14:25)
So this is really fascinating. I actually, I totally connect with your story about reality television because I actually, my first job in law was at MTV reviewing, it was in Santa Monica, reviewing Next for like trademark issues or like IP issues. And I was like, I very quickly knew that this is not what I wanna do.

Because this was MTV 2007 actually, right as you were talking about the descent, they would produce these pilots for like 500,000 million bucks. And that's what I actually understood there. I actually peek into the economics of these shows and how they produce so many pilots, you don't even realize unless you're there, right?

Yeah, so I guess my question to be that, I think for every artist, everyone who's in film and television is how do you balance the artistic interest and the desire to tell a story with the commercial importance of having a commercial success and how do you draw that balance?

[Mark Korshak] (14:25 - 17:59)
You gotta get out of the gate, right? Like you can't have and hold your art into such high esteem that it doesn't get made or that it doesn't make, at least cover itself or have an opportunity to cover its budget, right? So I've always kind of reverse engineered and backed my way into projects in terms of right sizing projects for the marketplace.

And so it's packaging and it's kind of making sure that you can put the right elements into projects that are gonna give you the best chance to sell the project at the end of the day. So you can keep going and make your next one. And I mean, I had a great experience working with Todd Berger, who's an auteur and who really, his first movie, or like it's a disaster, was his second movie at Jewish styles, America for Air, David Cross, right?

Like these are esteemed actors. Yeah, stars. And I went to him and that was a $500,000 movie.

So I'm a great cast that kind of really responded to a script that did it for literally daily scale, right? Like they're doing it for peanuts. And the movie became kind of an indie cult classic, but for his next movie, I was like, look, the way we get this made is we lean into the trend.

I'm not telling you we have to go make this with influencers and Vine stars, but we do need an edge. We do need something. This is a movie about Coachella, cover versions wise.

So let's go get Nick and Disney stars. And basically, this will be kind of the evolution of their careers too. And perfectly lines with our story of like, this is the dark side of both our story and that represents some part of maybe these characters and actors lives.

And so lean into that, embrace it, right? Not every director or writer director would have been down with that. And I mean, fortunately for both Todd and I, like he was and we got the movie made and we were able to sell the movie for 140% of its budget based on that.

And then we got to keep going, right? I mean, the funny thing is, it's still not scalable. Even when you do it, it didn't necessarily leave like our next movie together.

We're now working together again, about eight, nine years later because I love working with him and we have a project together, but it's still just so hard even when you have success to like basically repeat that success. So I just try and give things the best chance they have to get made and then get distributed and make hopefully the financiers some money so that I can kind of maintain my track record and give the director another shot and give myself another shot. And combined, I've made seven movies now and I've made money on all of them to the tune of 140% of their budgets.

Most of them are singles. They're not huge home runs or widely distributed theatrical films, but there aren't a lot of people, I don't think that can say that they've made seven movies that have all made money. And so that's just my approach, right?

Like my approach is just right size it for the marketplace and back your way into it. And not every, I guess, artist or creator is going to respond to every idea, but it's a compromise. You have to find that balance and I think I have a pretty good track record of getting the things I'm passionate about made.

[Pankaj Raval] (18:00 - 18:10)
Yeah, that's impressive. I mean, yeah, I don't think that many people in this town in LA could say that they've had seven movies that have made money like that. So that's very impressive.

[Mark Korshak] (18:10 - 18:19)
I wish I had a big one that flopped. I think, you know, failing up is also a thing that, you know, a lot of people can point to in this industry. I'm yet to fail up.

[Pankaj Raval] (18:20 - 18:22)
Yeah, no Snow White under your belt yet.

[Mark Korshak] (18:23 - 18:31)
It's a little dirty, Snow White. You can walk into anywhere and people will be like, oh, cool, you made Snow White? Like most people outside of our industry don't know the box office, right?

[Pankaj Raval] (18:31 - 18:58)
So yeah, well, actually, that kind of leads me to my next question. I'm always fascinated by is just the economics of the industry, right? Like how does it, how has it worked in the past?

Because like when you started in 2007 to today, how's the economics change? Maybe now we have streaming kind of taking over, but if you can maybe walk us through a little bit also for the listeners who may not be even familiar with how economics of movie making works. Can you can you walk us through a little bit of how people used to make money and maybe how they're making money today?

[Mark Korshak] (18:58 - 21:04)
Yeah, I mean, I think there's been a fundamental shift that if I zoom out, I think we can attribute that to just kind of the larger attention economy, right? Like people, you know, media companies didn't have to compete with social media platforms and tech companies 15, 20 years ago. When I started, you know, it really was this kind of top down media mogul decision maker model, which was cool if you could get the gig, right?

And I was like, yeah, maybe one day I can get that gig. That gig doesn't exist anymore. I mean, there was a great podcast today by Puck and Matt Bellamy and it was just basically saying that David Zazlov is the last media mogul and obviously even he's struggling.

So just to zoom out, I mean, I think we've shifted from this kind of like top down world to now competing for everyone's attention with big tech and there's no barrier to entry for content creators now. You can go off, make a podcast, you can go off and create TikTok with your phone, right? And so when you're deciding whether or not it's worth spending $50 to go on a date to go to the movies versus watching Netflix at home for basically free, right?

You're already kind of baked into that ecosystem. Most of the time, people kind of opt to stay at home, watch Netflix, right? And then there's also YouTube and user-generated content and TikTok that we talked about that just again didn't exist in the way that it does 20 years ago.

And so the pie may be the same size or even slightly bigger, but us kind of media executives are not fighting for slices of the pie anymore or fighting really for crumbs. I mean, there's still a few guys, a few people, excuse me, that are getting a slice of the pie. But I think coming up in today's world, you're really fighting for crumbs as opposed to a slice of the pie.

[Pankaj Raval] (21:05 - 21:21)
What do you think of? I just love to hear like people from the industry like about their perspectives on like Mr. Beast who has his own production studio and now is generating $200 million views per video or maybe more. I mean, has that changed how you approach making movies?

[Mark Korshak] (21:21 - 22:24)
Yeah, I mean, my next company is trying to lean into that friend too and kind of going from this top down decision making world to leaning into the ground up development and basically asking fans and audiences what they want to see. So I believe in that model. I believe in kind of, we're seeing it all around us a democratization of content.

Like I said, the barrier to entry has been eradicated. So how do we embrace that? I think is the next challenge for Hollywood because Hollywood is losing ground every day.

And mainly to, I mean, when you kind of think about it, big tech, right? Like, and Hollywood probably lose more ground to AI. So if you embrace these changes, we're going to get left behind.

And so I'm still trying to find the forest through the trees. It's still, I think you have to really figure out kind of where your role is in this ecosystem and just try and lean into it. And I think mine is in trying to kind of embrace the changes that are happening.

[Pankaj Raval] (22:25 - 23:07)
Yeah. Do you feel like we have to make different types of content for Gen Z or even later, younger generations that you do have to make for the older generations? Because I feel like even, I'm kind of a, what I found out is called a geriatric millennial, which is like on the end of the millennial spectrum.

But I mean, we grew up with movies, right? We grew up with precomputers and now we're used to seeing the movies, one of the movies. But I feel like maybe Gen Z and younger may not be even used to go into movies as much.

I mean, are you making, is it really, are you trying to get their eyeballs or are you making something more broad for a broad segment of the population? Like how do you think about what you're making in terms of who's going to consume it?

[Mark Korshak] (23:07 - 25:37)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting. I mean, I think from a theatrical perspective, the behavior is still there. It's just harder to reach that next gen because they showed up the Minecraft movie, right?

I mean, that's been the biggest hit of the year. And so it's not only about the IP, but it's about the execution. It's one of the few movies I still need to see and I will go see it.

But I mean, you're seeing kind of the reaction to this on TikTok. I mean, everyone throwing popcorn and going crazy. And I mean, lean into that.

Embrace it. If you're a movie theater owner, like, I mean, you know, they're starting to push back. And I've seen videos of theater owners getting pissed off.

And I mean, sure, it sucks. And if you have families there and you're having to reimburse them for their tickets, like, that's taken a hit. But as a whole, that is all viral marketing for the theater experience.

And we need more of it. I mean, we had it last year with Barbenheimer and we had it the year before that with Top Gun, right? So there's this combination of nostalgia that brings people back.

But it's really just well-executed events. And so, unfortunately, like, scale is king. It used to be, you know, content was king, right?

But now I just think we're living in this media landscape where it's like scale and execution are king. Like, you can't just be good. You have to be great.

Like, the Minecraft movie took 10 years to make, I think. So they really took their time in perfecting it. And it paid off, right?

Like, they could have turned that thing around in 18 months, three years, and they could have just tried to jam that into a slot. And they probably would have done that 20 years ago. But now they know, like, you get one shot at this, you know, if you succeed, you get sequels, spin-offs.

It turns into a franchise. If you fail, one done, and that's it. So, luckily, I mean, Minecraft and Barbie have worked.

And, you know, I mean, they're kind of one-offs. I mean, I don't know. I mean, maybe you could try and do a Roblox movie.

Like, I don't know what other IP out there is as ripe for the picking as like those two things for, I mean, for Barbie, for cross-generational appeal. But for Minecraft, for kind of this younger generation. I mean, even if you compare it like Super Mario Brothers, that's more like our generation, the Millennials, Gen Xers.

I mean, I think plus their kids. So it's like kind of a dual generation approach. But Minecraft, I think, is really hitting this underserved Gen Z market.

[Pankaj Raval] (25:38 - 25:42)
Yeah. I mean, they tried to do Super Mario Brothers again recently.

[Mark Korshak] (25:42 - 25:42)
Yeah, it worked.

[Pankaj Raval] (25:43 - 25:46)
And it didn't. It was a big hit. Okay.

[Mark Korshak] (25:46 - 27:30)
But again, it goes back to execution, right? And it's like guys like us, people like us that are like, oh, that's cool. And it's like somebody can go with my kids.

Like, I actually never got through the movie because I'm like, I don't have kids. Like, yeah, it's cool. But like, you know, it's something I would probably be excited about if I did have kids because I could show them a piece of my kind of heritage, if you will.

But, you know, I'm in that weird kind of geriatric millennial, I think, is and without kids. So I'm not the target demo for the Super Mario's Brother movie, but I still think there obviously was an audience for it. So the short answer is, I think you need to eventize projects to get people to movie theaters and you need to execute them almost flawlessly.

You know, Barbie was, there's something for everyone in that movie. And it could have, if it had leaned a little further into kind of lokeness, maybe rub some people the wrong way. And if it had been a little less politically correct, it might have rubbed some other people the wrong way, but it just kind of struck that perfect balance and everybody saw it.

And, you know, they turned into events and people were showing up to movie theaters in pink. And so, I mean, those kinds of big events are going to prop up the movie theater industry for the next decade plus, I think. I mean, there's just going to be fewer and further between and the little kind of mid-tier movies, maybe one or two of them will break out a year or maybe a few of them will.

But a lot of those companies, like the companies who work for Lakeshore isn't around anymore because it's just too hard to compete in that kind of $30 million movie range. Those movies are going to Netflix and those are cost-plus deals. There's not a lot of upside long-term of those.

[Sahil Chaudry] (27:32 - 28:20)
I want to briefly talk about the risk you took to become CEO of Artist Road and how you put together a deal between multiple partners and multiple investors. And if you could walk us through, I mean, I'm sure incoming itself has a lot of confidentiality provisions, but just if you could walk us through the anatomy of a deal of are there bank financiers? Are there distribution rights that get leveraged?

What does it cost in terms? I mean, you don't have to give us specific numbers, but what does it look like when you're putting together that deal? To what degree is it equity?

To what degree is it debt? To what degree is it some other kinds of commission sales type agreements? How does that deal structure work?

[Mark Korshak] (28:20 - 28:24)
And are we talking about Artist Road at the company level or incoming on the project level?

[Sahil Chaudry] (28:26 - 28:30)
Oh, that's a good question. If you could kind of touch on both.

[Mark Korshak] (28:30 - 31:32)
Sure. Okay. So, I mean, Artist Road came together, I mean, somewhat out of necessity for me.

I mean, you know, I was basically making the rounds trying to land a job and everybody I talked to, there's 2018, I think, and everybody I talked to basically said, you're great, but like, you can't really hire somebody like you right now, so go start your own thing. And that was the feedback I was consistently getting. And I mean, it gave me the motivation I wanted and needed to like, be like, okay, I'm going to go try and start my own thing.

I'm coming off of off the dock. I know how to launch a mini major studio and work with institutional partners. And so, fortunately, the timing aligned and one of the producers I talked to was Todd Garner, who is a prolific kind of independent producer and has a deal at Paramount and ran Disney 20 years ago and just has been around the block.

And he was also in the market looking to build a comedy studio. And so we teamed up and then kind of partnered with artists first and Peter Prince-Bato and Ben Silverman and Propagates. And then from there, we ultimately partnered with Spyglass and they backed the venture.

And they were all great partners. They hadn't all worked together in this kind of type of joint venture capacity. So I mean, as one could expect, there's obviously a lot of cooks in the kitchen.

So we were able to make two movies in that model and they were wholly spec'd films that we cash flowed. So there was no collateral. I mean, this is very atypical.

Like these were really truly institutional indies because we had a strategic partner backing the films. But we were out there on our own island funding these movies and it was a zero sum game. You either sell them for more than you make them for or you don't and you're screwed.

Luckily, we sold both of them for more than we made them for. But there was a lot of risk each time you go get the green light and the risk is, okay, wait a minute. Like I'm personally, I mean, whether or not I am financially, it's a different story, but I personally feel like I'm on the hook for this.

And I have to see this through and I have to make sure that I make my financiers money back because I've had some tough financiers and they're not people that like to lose money. And they're both, they've both been very sophisticated in how they approach things. And it's my job to basically sell them on how the project's risk has been mitigated.

But again, we haven't actually mitigated any risk. We haven't pre-sold any territories. We're just basically banking on comps and leveraging ultimately these companies collateral to go finance these movies through different credit facilities.

[Sahil Chaudry] (31:33 - 31:57)
So as a producer, this is a very logical, analytical side of your job who's working with financiers, investors, putting the deal together, buyers. And then on the other side, you're working with artists. Do you see yourself as more of an artist or a business person?

And how do you balance those two sides?

[Mark Korshak] (31:58 - 34:47)
Well, I would say my answer has probably changed since Lake Shore because I had more institutional support at Lake Shore. I wasn't the CEO of Off the Dock. I had a partner and there were other people kind of behind the venture and more infrastructure because it was still really a division of Lake Shore.

So we had Lake Shore's production resources. So I didn't have to be the bad cop. I think when I started Artist Road, I had to be more comfortable being the bad cop because the buck ultimately stopped at me, right?

So I was basically, through Artist Road, funding these films. And at all costs, I had to figure out a way out of the films that I had to figure out a way to make the movie sellable. I just had this personal sense of responsibility of, as if I borrowed the money, to basically pay it back.

And so that doesn't always mesh super well with artists, right? Because artists have pure visions and right or wrong. Sometimes the right, sometimes they're wrong.

They want to do things their way. And sometimes it's just a fight about who's right. And sometimes it's just people digging in their heels to dig in their heels.

Ego gets in the way. I try and remove my ego as much and as often as possible. And I had some heavy hitter partners that sometimes actually would come in and do some of the majority work in ways that I may not have always done.

But sometimes they were effective. Sometimes they weren't, right? So it's this kind of messy process making a movie.

And at the end of the day, I don't think anyone should care about how the sausage was made. To me, it's water under the bridge. I can't say that for every artist or director or writer I've worked with.

I'm sure people do hold grudges sometimes. And that's okay. I mean, that's just kind of the nature of the beast.

But at the end of the day, I think the results speak for themselves. Like the movies got made. They were successful.

And both financially and in terms of viewership. And so one of the only metrics in my book that matter is just the bottom line of like, did the movie work financially? Did the movie kind of work with the audience?

I think those are the two boxes. You just have to get to those two boxes and put yourself in a position to check them both. And if you can check one of the two, I think you're winning.

If you can check both, you won. That's my bottom line. It may not be everyone else's.

But I mean, I'm making this up as I go here. But that's kind of what it boils down to for me.

[Pankaj Raval] (34:48 - 35:22)
I think, I mean, you're right. I think just seeing some of these deals been made in the past and just working on MTV, seeing the different elements that go into production. I mean, there's so much, so many moving pieces with producing a film.

I'm always intrigued is, how do you mitigate your risk? How do you make sure that you don't lose your shirt on these deals? Obviously, I know it's a lot of public blood, sweat and tears, but is there something you look for, some way you structure these deals to make sure that there is an out or is there, I mean, is there even an out?

I don't know. How do you generally approach that?

[Mark Korshak] (35:22 - 38:07)
I think the decision to take the risk is a gut level decision. I mean, I think I'm betting on my, I guess, sense and feel of the market. And I've been right about that seven out of the seven times that I've rolled that dice.

But I mean, at the level of films that I'm making, the producer financiers have creative control, which I do think is important. Sometimes you have to protect directors from themselves. Especially, again, at the level of films that I'm making, more early stage directors, first-timer, second-timers, whatever, you know, they're not like Quentin Tarantino where they've earned that level of like final cut respect.

And so helping people get out of their own way, I think is sometimes part of the, I guess, unsexy process, but a process that yields, hopefully the best result. And I'm not saying I'm the genius that's going to help them stay out of their own way, but it's a process, it's a collective. And in my case, we had a great group with Artist Road and people that had a combined 300 film track record.

Some worked, some didn't, but on the whole, I mean, these are people that were able to kind of keep going, especially in this currently challenged media landscape. So I think creative control is a big part of mitigating risk and just kind of making sure that unless it's one of maybe five directors that has a proven track record, that has a very unique vision that has got the ability to execute and demonstrated that they have the ability to execute it time and time again, the producers and financiers who are risking the capital ultimately need to for their own sake, for the sake of their capital to kind of hold on to the final say. I think it's got to be a conversation and everything, and hopefully you don't have to exercise it. Everything is really a negotiation and it's kind of horse trading, right?

And most of the time, I've never really played that final cut card. I've seen other people play it and sometimes it's necessary. Sometimes it's ego and sometimes obviously, it's not necessary.

But typically, when you see somebody pull that card out, it's a last stop. The few times that I have seen it pulled out, I'm like, okay, I don't agree with how they did it, but I understand why it's there. And again, very few creatives have that kind of final cut.

There's a reason why that mechanism's in place.

[Pankaj Raval] (38:08 - 38:26)
You're right. There's no probably clear, finite strategy. A lot of this is you got to make these deals and everyone's going to negotiate their element and everyone's got their own desires and interests and insecurities, I'm sure, that come to play in this whole process.

So yeah, definitely, definitely not for the fate of heart, I feel. Yeah, that's for sure.

[Mark Korshak] (38:27 - 38:28)
You're in the trenches.

[Sahil Chaudry] (38:29 - 38:34)
Yeah, on that note, do you have any advice for someone who wants to become a producer?

[Mark Korshak] (38:35 - 40:38)
Make sure you love it. Don't do it for the money. The business has changed.

Make sure you're either a true cinephile or you love some part of the process, but if you're just in it to make deals, go do real estate. Real estate's challenged too these days, but again, it's just the economics are not what they used to be. And they aren't even what they were when I started this business, but there was this appeal to Hollywood and glamor.

We all want to entourage. I wasn't going to say it, but that's kind of the allure, but those days are long gone. Not only the financial side of the lifestyle, it's all very buttoned up now.

MBAs run studios for the most part now. It's not the Bob Evans of the world as much anymore, right? So it's harder to become that person, and those are the only people that are really, I think, winning on a major scale.

You could still have some success, but as a non-writing producer, it's really tough. It's really talent has gained a lot more leverage because if you can go get Leonardo DiCaprio to produce a movie, he can call anybody, right? So why would you go with a non-writing producer over Leonardo DiCaprio or a director who has those relationships who will help kind of in the edit room, right?

So there's just so much more of an insurance policy. If you're at a creative backed company, if you're making studio films and films kind of for the studio and streamer ecosystem, but you're making films independently. I think my skill set lends itself well to that environment of like, okay, just making sure that we protect the bottom line financially, but also just trying to make it as appealing and mainstream as possible.

[Sahil Chaudry] (40:39 - 40:54)
It reminds me of a show you recommended to me, the studio, where Seth Rogen's character is trying to balance making this art film that could be directed by Martin Scorsese, but it's the Kool-Aid movie.

[Mark Korshak] (40:56 - 42:18)
Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I mean, you know, but at the end of the day, like brands are diving into this ecosystem and every 20 or so years, Hollywood's looking to tap a new source of financing, and brands, I think, are that next wave of financiers and a lot of producers in Hollywood's mind. So, I mean, I think the studio kind of hit the nail on the head with that one.

There's so much truth and jest in that show, and it's so perfectly captured. And I mean, Seth Rogen, ironically, has been on the other side of that so much. I have a buddy who made that show and was talking about a scene where, you know, in the show, like Seth Rogen's character, trying to kind of cozy up the talent and chime in on their conversation, but like completely boxing him out and ignoring him.

And my buddy was like, yeah, no, I had that exact moment on this show. So, it's very meta and it's very inside baseball. I don't think people around the country are probably talking about the show in the way that we are, but it's pretty brilliant if you care about Hollywood or if, you know, it's an homage to kind of old Hollywood in a lot of ways.

Where do you find the show? What service is it on? Apple TV.

It's really Seth Rogen's love letter to movies, but it's a TV show.

[Pankaj Raval] (42:18 - 42:39)
Okay, cool. The studio on Apple TV. All right, cool.

So, we're going to wrap up. I wanted to kind of, you know, maybe ask, what is next for you? What's in the pipeline?

I don't know how much you can share. I know you said a little bit under wraps, but what you can share. We'd love to hear a little bit about what you're doing and also how people can find you if they want to reach out, you know, and learn more about what you're doing.

And maybe invest in the next film.

[Mark Korshak] (42:40 - 44:28)
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, I am launching a new studio that's a joint venture with a creator community platform and really trying to lean into that trend that I alluded to earlier of developing content with the fans and with the audience and really trying to, you know, find the best ideas and source the best ideas and intellectual property from the creator community. And then working alongside brands to do that for them so that they're not just producing 30 second TV commercials, right?

Like they could, you know, if you're if you're Kellogg's like instead of Jerry Seinfeld going and making the Pop-Tart movie, like you could be a part of that process. You can go fund that movie and then have a little bit more say in the process. So I do believe in that kind of marriage of the creator community brands and Hollywood.

So that's certainly a big part of what I'm going to be doing next. And then I have a slate of projects that I'm producing independently, including a movie on Jerry Springer and several others, you know, that are kind of in that biopic true life nostalgic lane, you know, that are based on IP, whether they be characters, bands, personalities, brands, you know, I use that term loosely, but from I really like that kind of early to mid 2000s era that we grew up in. And I think there's a lot of nostalgia for those types of cultural events and characters that were coming up then and shaping the world that we live in now today, whether that be Jerry Springer or Paris Hilton or whoever else.

[Pankaj Raval] (44:28 - 44:51)
Yeah, I see a lot of sports docs to a lot of sport documentary on like people from the NBA stars or, you know, from that era. So I think you're right. It's really, really interesting.

I'm always interested. You know, I'm also I do a lot of IP. So in terms of like securing these rights to these to these documentaries, to these to these stories, how difficult is that process?

I'm always intrigued in how you kind of approach approach securing these rights.

[Mark Korshak] (44:52 - 46:24)
Well, let me answer the question with a question, because I think it is case by case and I'm not always sure whether I need somebody's life rights if they're public figures. So another thing I may have to come back to the carbon law group about, you know, I'm like, if I get the state's blessing, that's great. There won't be any headaches.

Actually, there probably will be headaches because then I want to have creative control and say and all that stuff. If I don't get their blessing, am I going to get sued? And if I do get sued as a defensible, right?

So there's just all kinds of decisions you have the way and when to approach versus whether or not you even do approach. So it really is just on a case by case. And everyone's going to give you a different answer is what I found.

I mean, I've talked to lawyers, I've talked to IP, you know, specialists, like there's just a whole host of experts out there and they all have differing opinions. And then there's chat GBT. You can always do that.

Yeah, I mean, I don't have the answer, unfortunately, but I'd like to do things with people's buy. And I mean, I did a documentary on Tom DeLay back in the day. I never released it for various reasons.

But, you know, I got his and his family's buy-in and part of the reason why I didn't release it is because I didn't want to potentially incriminate him or make him look bad. He had an ongoing, you know, legal case at the time. So, you know, I try and do right by the subjects as well, to use a Fox News term, fair and balanced would be the approach.

[Sahil Chaudry] (46:24 - 46:26)
Right, right, right.

[Mark Korshak] (46:26 - 46:29)
But actually mean that, you know, rather than exactly the same.

[Sahil Chaudry] (46:31 - 46:40)
That is interesting because I know copyright, for example, is life of the author. Plus, I think it's it's over 100 years, 150 years.

[Pankaj Raval] (46:40 - 46:44)
Well, 70 years. Yeah, yeah. 70 years if it's, yeah, if it's individual.

[Mark Korshak] (46:45 - 46:52)
So 70 years if it's innovative, what if they're a public figure, though? Can you do it based on their life or based on their life?

[Pankaj Raval] (46:52 - 47:35)
So that's that goes into like name and likeness rights. And it's a little bit different. It, yeah, but you're because if it's public information, if it's if you're using public sources, then potentially you could you know, create documentary without their approval.

But if you're using any kind of other information, private information that, you know, that is not necessarily your private footage for somewhere else. Is that clear? That's that's a little bit more questionable.

That's a little more gray. But but stuff you can, you know, from public. Code, information, media.

Yeah, publicly available stuff. You could that you can license. You could absolutely use.

So it's an interesting question. Not one I've researched enough to speak about, you know, but I'm happy to chat more.

[Mark Korshak] (47:36 - 47:38)
This is the perfect for me because I'm getting free legal advice.

[Pankaj Raval] (47:39 - 47:39)
Yeah, exactly.

[Sahil Chaudry] (47:40 - 47:43)
This is not legal advice to everyone listening.

[Pankaj Raval] (47:44 - 48:18)
If you want legal advice, consult your lawyer. You need to sign the engagement letter. Exactly, exactly, exactly.

Well, this has been great. You know, this is really, really fascinating conversation. I'm so grateful for Sahel introducing us and, you know, thank you so much again for sharing so much of your your wisdom and insight.

I mean, it's really amazing what you've been done. It is not easy at all. So anyone's listening, it's not easy, but it's possible.

You know, it's got to keep pushing. And and I think Mark had some really, really fantastic insights for us. Any last words of advice or information on people where people can find you if they want to reach out.

[Mark Korshak] (48:18 - 48:55)
Yeah, don't quit your day job is what I was thinking. Unless you know, a lot agree that you can fall back on. But yeah, I mean, look, I'm on LinkedIn.

I kind of go on and off, but that's my social media platform of choice these days. The least toxic of all the social media that's out there, I think, people are held to a little bit of a higher standard and to more account and there's less anonymity on it. So yeah, I'm a fan there.

I'm always on and off, but more on than I am the other platform. So yeah, hit me up any time and you know, let's chat.

[Sahil Chaudry] (48:57 - 49:16)
Well, thank you all so much for joining us on this episode of letters of intent. Please remember to subscribe to our channel, like and follow our Spotify the episodes on Spotify and stay in touch. We've got a newsletter and we are going to continue with this series of guests.