Letters of Intent

Sahil (00:03)
Welcome back to Letters of Intent. Today, we are joined by my co-host, Pankaj Raval and the founder of Carbon Law Group. My name is Sahil Chaudry I'm a corporate attorney here with Carbon Law Group. And today we're going to talk trademarks. Trademarks, intellectual property. This is a very important practice for Carbon Law Group.

and I'm just gonna kick things off and get right to the heart of it, Pankaj What inspired you to start Carbon Law Group and focus so heavily on intellectual property and trademarks?

Pankaj Raval (00:34)
Hey Sahil yeah, so thanks taking the lead today on the podcast. I'm excited about this episode because IP trademarks, copyrights specifically, are very close to my heart. I started actually practicing, working on trademarks probably earlier than maybe I should have, which was in law school. I worked for an estate planning attorney. He has kind of a one-man show in Tucson, Arizona, and I was working for him.

clerk and he's like, oh yeah, know, these clients I have, they also need to file trademarks. I was like, oh, okay. What is that? This is even before I took even a trademark class. So I had to learn on the fly. I'm very surprised that he actually trusted me to do this because I really knew nothing. And, you know, so I kind of learned about, okay, trademarks, how to file them, know, USPTO, what the process was. And this was, you know, 2007, 2008, you know, so this is before a lot of

you these online services were there. This is when you kind of had to just do a lot of things more, a lot more manually. and even like trademark searches, I didn't really understand trademark searches. You know, he would guide me a little bit, but he was an estate planning lawyer, so he didn't even know that much, but he was like, just do it, you know, for those clients. And, and for the most part, you know, they worked out well. And, I don't think we ever really got any major office actions. you know, knock on wood, and then, you know, fast forward to today, you know, we have a thriving trademark path.

a practice where we manage portfolios of many clients globally. and it's all because, you know, I've always been interested in kind of the creative side of law. I'd always knew that if, you know, I'm going to continue to practice law, I gotta do something creative and I have a background in graphic design and I used to design a lot of logos. even in high school, actually I won a competition for the design of the logo for my high school t-shirt. so I was always messed around with like logo design. You know, I was like a bit of a, like a font nerd.

And, in high school and, know, now I'm just kind of overall nerd, but, yeah, that it was more specific to like just design. I, it always just found it interesting, messed around with Photoshop a lot. And, um, and I thought, okay, this is a cool way to kind of marry those interests as understanding design. And I, and I loved like, you know, just understanding branding too. So that's kind of how I got into trademark. had passion for it. I had a passion for design early on. Um, I almost went to design school before law school.

And I thought, know, after law school, if I'm going to continue to, you know, I was like, I don't even know which areas I really like, but I like the fact that this is something creative that I can work on. And it's been a really fun, rewarding practice since.

Sahil (02:50)
That is very cool and if anyone's visited the USPTO site, it can be very intimidating. and you learned this initially as trial by fire. So did you find it intimidating at first?

Pankaj Raval (03:01)
Definitely, absolutely. I was probably like a lot of our clients, the challenge with the law is you don't know what you don't know. And sometimes people can be overconfident going into these things because they think, it's simple, I could just spend 50 bucks online with some online service and file these marks. But we've gotten a lot of business actually from people who have come from these online services and they messed them up. They did something wrong.

They didn't give them the right advice. You know, we've had people come to us time and time again because they used an online service and they didn't get any guidance. And actually their trademark issue was a little bit more complicated. One, maybe there wasn't a proper search done. So now they run into conflicts. There may be some other issues, descriptiveness issues. There could be a variety of issues that arise when you're a trademark that people don't really realize. you know, just likely the confusion is one of the major ones, but there's a lot of other ones.

that could arise when examining attorneys evaluating your mark, like descriptiveness. There could issues. So these are things you want to be aware of before you start down the trademark path.

Sahil (04:02)
So why should every business owner, no matter the size, care about trademark infringement?

Pankaj Raval (04:08)
So, you know, just, I think why people should care about trademarks and then also trademark infringement is that, you know, trademarks are an asset for your business, right? They're your brand. And depending on the business you operate, mean, arguably every business has some brand value, right? There's goodwill. We hear about this term, goodwill. When you sell a business, there's a value assigned to goodwill. You could argue that that goodwill is oftentimes tied up with a name. You know, there may be other elements to it, but,

when you're looking to sell a business, you understand what that goodwill is. And if you have a popular brand name, now you can argue that, the value of my goodwill is very high and probably ask for a higher price for your business if you're selling it. So those are things you want to think about. Like when you're establishing a business, when you're building that business, how are you going to protect the goodwill? If you don't have a trademark, now someone could open up a similar business. If you're operating in California, someone can open something in Maine or Alabama, and you may have trouble stopping them.

because your rights are geographic. And even though we work in an online world today, it's not clear. Like if you don't sell to those places, if you don't have clients in those places or customers, will you be able to stop them? It's a question that you're gonna have to pay a lot of money to probably figure out. So why not, be ahead of the ball rather than behind it, file the trademark, protect your rights federally. And ideally, if you're looking to expand your business globally, you need to think about filing your trademark in every country because

trademark laws is country specific. So some people don't realize that, well, I also want to sell to the UK or China. Hey, you better lock that down sooner rather than later because you better believe that people in China, people in India, people in these other, you know, Mexico, other countries are watching what's filed in the U S what performs and filing the same name in those markets. So because in those markets, all they have to do is file and now they beat you to the punch and you are going to be now

fighting for that name and most likely not be able to get it.

Sahil (05:58)
So let's break this down for our listeners who might be less familiar with the law. Let's say I am opening my business and I have drawn my logo on a piece of paper. Which part of that is trademark? Which part of that is copyright? How should I think about the value of that name? Like you mentioned, you know, that...

name or that logo could be sold as part of, is generating goodwill. When people see that, they're associating that with whatever service or goods I'm providing. So how should that person think about are the rights baked into this drawing I've created with a name? Exactly.

Pankaj Raval (06:36)
⁓ love it. This is like exam question.

to back up in terms of like understanding IP in general, right? know, the example you gave is you draw a logo on a napkin and is the IP here that you've created? So we look at there's four kind of distinct areas of The broad umbrella is patents.

Sahil (06:44)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (07:00)
that protect kind of inventions, utilities. There's also design patents, but there has to be, this has to be something new and novel. Then there's trademarks. that protects, trademarks are effectively source identifiers. here help you understand, okay, what's the source of these goods? You know, when you buy Nike, you are buying a certain type of good brand. It conveys us, you know, the marketing plays a role in it, but like you...

There's a feeling you get and there's expectation of quality when you buy something from Nike. or Lululemon. And then there's copyright. Copyright is the, the legal definition is the tangible expression of an idea. So you cannot protect ideas on their own, but you the tangible expression of those ideas. And then there's trade secrets. Trade secrets are something that doesn't fall into any of these others, kind of the catchall. Those are things that are protected by contract, generally speaking.

because, um, know, NDAs confidentiality agreements, because, um, you maybe don't want to file a patent for something because then you have to disclose it or even a trademark or copyright. You have to disclose these things to protect them. Uh, with trade secrets that could be held internally. A good example is a Coca-Cola recipe for many years. That's been a trade secret. you know, they kept that under wraps, you know, and I don't think, I don't know it was actually the safe, but, know, I think you can kind of envision this.

you know, this, the safe and this golden you know, piece of paper that's been handed down over the, the years. ⁓ those are the four different areas. And when you're talking about like, a picture on a, on a napkin. So you're talking about trademark and copyright and there's an overlap there and people need to understand that there could be an overlap between you think about it as kind of a Venn diagram, not necessarily, distinct, you funnels,

Sahil (08:13)
That's right.

Pankaj Raval (08:29)
distinct silos in terms of how trademark law or IP law works. So if you're looking at copyrights and trademarks, when you draw that logo on the napkin, that's copyrightable because is a tangible expression of an idea. You have an idea, you wrote it down, and as long as it has some element of creativity, if you just write the name and a napkin, that's not copyrightable because

copyright office is gonna say that doesn't have an element of creativity to it. But if you draw a logo, now that has an element of creativity and as long as it's not a commonly used symbol, you're most likely gonna be able to get copyright protection for that if you file a copyright for it. And then there's also trademarks. Trademarks now is protecting the brand. It confusion. And that's the difference. I oftentimes tell people to file both.

because it's the best protection. You can get a copyright and a trademark for a logo because the copyright protects the reproduction of that image or of that logo. If someone reproduces it, are going to be remedies in copyright law and oftentimes statutory remedies. And then the remedies are different and important to understand. Copyright law, you can get statutory damages. Trademark law, there's not necessarily, there are some, if there's a counterfeiting involved, there could be statutory damages.

But otherwise, there's not necessarily like a statutory damage for trademark infringement. So you have to kind of prove your damages in many ways. So that's the difference. You have to understand, OK, what are the remedies available to me? And oftentimes, unless it's a counterfeit issue, to have these statutory damages that are probably easier to get in copyright law. And those are like, if people use images don't have the rights a copyright claim. So you can.

protect it in both ways and then decide how to enforce it. But again, protections around it are unique because when you have a copyright, it gives you the right to that, to the reproduction of that image, that logo and any derivatives of it. Okay. So the question of derivatives is a very complex one and usually very fact specific, but then also in trademark law, it protects you in the sense that if someone creates something confusingly similar.

Okay, that's kind of term here. Is it confusionally similar to have in your brand? And is it causing consumer confusion? Because that's what we want to avoid in trademark law. If someone's out there stealing your goodwill, we've had this issue come up many times, we filed lawsuits over it, because we had someone recently create a whole website that incorporated our client's name and they were operating in like Minnesota.

My client is here in California and is essentially just causing consumer confusion online. People are writing terrible reviews because this other company was doing a terrible job. They're based out of Pakistan or something. And they just copied the very look of our client's website as well as the name. And they just added something to the end of it. But adding something to the end is generally not avoid consumer confusion if the operative term is the beginning. It's a first term.

So it was, a pretty clear cut case of, trademark infringement. tried to reason with them. didn't, they didn't listen. They gave us the run around. said, Hey, you know what? We're giving you one final chance. if you want to shut this down, great. If not, we'll file suit. They didn't believe us. We filed suit and they learned the hard way after spending thousands of dollars on attorney's fees. So that's what we do for our clients is we make sure that, you know, it's, was at Roosevelt said, you know, it's speak softly, but carry a big stick.

Sahil (11:34)
That's right.

Pankaj Raval (11:34)
That's how we like to operate.

Sahil (11:35)
Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, it kind of so you've given an example where someone is using a name and infringing, know, essentially, they're creating confusion in the market. They're putting themselves out to be somebody that they're not, or they're leveraging someone else's goodwill. You know, one of the thing that we both are familiar with, for example, the project trade show. So as a fashion lawyer, I've walked around that trade show, and I noticed there's some very famous brands, but

Oftentimes those brands actually are not the corporate entities themselves. They've licensed out that brand name. So for example, I'll see somebody have a famous brand name, but they just have the shoes or they just have shirts. And I would go up and speak with the owners thinking that, this is that brand. in fact,

it's a company that has licensed that name. So how does that work? you know, in one hand, you gave an example where you're not allowed to use someone else's name, but what are the situations where you could use someone's name? And can you explain what a license is?

Pankaj Raval (12:34)
Yeah,

absolutely. And that's great point and a great way for brand owners to monetize a brand, right? So a lot of times these big, big brands, big companies will license the brands to different entities. for example, like lot of the clubs we see nowadays are oftentimes licensing deals. These are licensing deals, you know, maybe the rights are bought by a JV that say, hey, we want to bring together

Bluey and Sesame Street, I don't know, know, something like that, and we wanna do a collab. We wanna bring together Bluey and Nike, and they wanna do a collab with Bluey and Nike. like, you know, bringing two kind of different brands, but two different markets together is a very attractive and creative way to generate a lot more revenue from a brand. So a license essentially is giving someone the right to use your mark, your copyrights.

or your trademarks. Now, it's really important to understand the difference between a license and a franchise because is some overlap there. But like in the restaurant world, limits on what you can actually do when it comes to allowing someone to use your name and then the controls you have over it. Because if you're just saying, hey, you can use this on these products and here's how we need it used, that's one thing. like in the restaurant world, if you're trying to license a name,

but then you want to train people how to operate. Now that's more of a franchise and there's a lot more a lot more a lot of other filings. You have to do these franchise disclosures. There's a lot more that goes into that. So it's really important to understand the context too of like licensing versus franchising because a lot of people mix that up. People, Hey, I can just license this name to people, but no, it's not that easy. know, it depends on the context that you're using it and, and, and what you're charging to.

So there are restrictions around that and people need to know that. licensing is a great way to say, have this really popular brand, your company that wants to, that has a certain market that wants to appeal to, you pay me $100,000 and then you can use it. And we've done that for clients in the past.

Sahil (14:26)
So can you share some examples of a business that may have lost its trademark rights because they didn't enforce it or perhaps a startup that got into trouble because they didn't do a clearance search before launching their brand?

Pankaj Raval (14:40)
Yeah, so a great example actually is, the brand, it's Hook and Loop is the term that they wanted to use, but it's actually Velcro. So Velcro, if people remember, this was in the news a while back, know, several years ago now, but they ran a huge campaign saying that, know, the Velcro, as we commonly know it, is actually, the actual generic name is Hook and Loop.

And they did this because at risk of losing their market due to something called genericide. And genericide is a fancy term for saying that's become generic. The term has become generic. For a while people are arguing Google. Now whenever you do web search is Googling something generic. Kleenex, another is that generic for tissue. And a lot of these companies have taken out extensive and expensive ad campaigns.

to avoid generic side. So one example is yeah, Hook and Loop. I'm not sure if they actually lost their mark. I think they were able to protect it, but it was funny because they wanted to make sure that everyone knew, you know what, no, Velcro is not, Velcro is the brand and you know, a company, but if you're talking about what connects things, you know, this fabric on one side, you know, this other kind of fabric on the other side that stick together, that's called Hook and Loop.

Sahil (15:54)
Hmm interesting Well, so now to get a little bit more practical. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are thinking okay This all sounds very complicated and in a way it is and that's why you need an attorney to help you So I wanted to ask about carbon law groups trademark watch service And how does that work to monitor and enforce the rights of our clients?

Pankaj Raval (16:16)
Yeah, so the trademark watch service is something that I created a while back and that we have several people on nowadays just to make sure that they're monitoring their marks because we realize that getting a trademark is the first step in the process of brand building and brand enforcement. You want to make sure you're watching your else is using it out there one thing people often don't realize is that

Getting is one thing, getting a patent is one thing, but enforcing your rights is a whole nother ball game in itself. And if you don't enforce your rights in trademark law, then you will risk losing them. Just like we see a generic side happening, it's actually also something called trademark dilution could happen if you have a famous brand, but also latches. There's an argument where if you don't enforce, if you learn about an infringer and you don't do anything about it, now if you take action later,

This other party could argue something called latches. This is a defense to enforcing your rights because you didn't do anything. You sat on your rights. That's what essentially the latches defense is and you therefore waived them. so it's really important for you that in mind as a, as a brand owner. If you're looking to trademark something the, the trademark is one thing, but you also have to make sure you're watching out for other infringers. And that's trademark watch service does as we monitor it, we

software that to that monitors, gives us reports, daily and weekly. And then we send it to our clients and then we can take action on your behalf as a law firm. can send desist letters. We could advise you on your rights. We can tell you, Hey, maybe, you know, this is a big company and we have to be careful about how we go about it. we could also tell you how to word those demand letters, because one thing you have to be careful about is we've used this tactic before in the past is that, you know, people have and desist letters.

and they threaten litigation and people don't realize on how you word a letter, you could expose yourself to something called a motion for declaratory relief. And we've, we've used this in the past, as a tactic to fight people who are trying to enforce rights that we don't believe they have. say, you know, you're threatening litigation against us. You're saying, you have all these rights. Fine. Let's file a motion for declaratory relief in our jurisdiction in California. You're, might be in New York. You might be in, North Carolina.

instead of us having to litigate there, now you have to litigate here and it's a extremely, aggressive tactic, but it's a very successful tactic because now we've been able to get favorable settlements for a lot of our clients based on copyright, based on trademark. When we file these motions for declaratory relief. So people realize there's tactics out there that maybe they're not aware of unless you're a lawyer, you probably wouldn't know about it, uh, that we can use for, for the benefit of our clients. And oftentimes saving them tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Sahil (18:43)
So when can be very exciting and when you're thinking about launching your brand, think thinking about the technicalities of trademark are usually far from an entrepreneur's mind. So what are some proactive steps a business owner should take before launching a new product, brand, or logo?

Pankaj Raval (18:55)
Right.

Yeah, so looking to launch a product, brand, anything related to like a brand, you if you have cosmetics company, like some companies are more brand dependent than others, right? So like you're a aerospace company, you know, does it matter as much your brand? Maybe you could use a few different names that you maybe don't care enough about. Then again, even that brand, you know, look at

SpaceX, you know, that's a great brand and you know, and I think there's a lot of goodwill there. So I think in most businesses today you want to have a strong brand. So, you know, if you care about your brand, then you want to make sure you're doing a proper search and you know, there's 45 international classes in which you can file a trademark and people need to recognize this. So when you're looking to file a trademark, you have to generally you pick one of the classes and you describe what your trademark does.

Sahil (19:24)
Right.

Pankaj Raval (19:46)
or the service or goods you're going to be providing, you can file multiple classes. So if you have like an app that could be in four different classes, generally speaking, based on what you're doing. So once you decide on, you know, what you're going to do with your mark, filing earlier is better. before you're using it in commerce, you can file under intent to use. And, that means you're going to kind of save your place in line with the USPTO and have rights over someone who may file later. and then.

When you actually start using in commerce, if you have a set time limit to do that, you then you file a statement of use or declaration of use once you actually start using in commerce and that will allow you to get your trademark most likely on the principal register if there's no issues. So these are things you want to think about, but like doing a search early, doing a brand clear a lot of names and that's something that actually we include in our trademark watch service too on the kind of the higher tier options is that we'll do clearances for people because

people don't realize like just because you think of a great name, oftentimes, you know, other people thought of that name or something similar. And, we have to tell people, Hey, I'm sorry. lot more often than not, which is all sorry, this, this name's taken. got to use something else. and especially with the number of trademarks being filed, there is an influx of filings from China. You know, it's a very crowded field out there now. So how do you find a name that works for you? How do you pick mark versus, you know, avoiding weak mark?

there's something called a spectrum of distinctiveness. You wanna make sure that your mark is as distinctive as possible. you know, when it comes to choosing a name, you want something that's, trademark office deems arbitrary or fanciful, which means that like, you know, Sony, Sony is a strong mark. Xerox generally is a strong mark because, I mean, before it became or before people used to start using it all the time, but those were like made up words that now meant something, you

that now we're associated with the brand. So these are things you want to think about. You want to be careful about last names because sometimes if it's just a surname that could be rejected, you want to be careful also about what your mark means in foreign language because there's actually a lot of interesting examples of car companies who have chosen names that actually meant something really bad in a foreign language. So when they try to enter that market, it...

backfired, let's just say, excuse the pun. So, so there's a lot of things you want to think about when you're when you're thinking of a brand name, and we actually go through a whole branding exercise that people want help with choosing a name will do clearances, we do a lot for cosmetics clients for for wellness products, because that's a very crowded those specific areas, you'd be surprised how hard it is to find a good name. We've had to tell clients, you have to go back to the drawing board several times. And also like

Think of a few names that you like before you settle on one. Because most often than not, we suggest people have three to five names ready to go that they like that we can do a clearance on. And that way, if one doesn't work, they have a backup. Otherwise, you know, you're going to be going back to the drawing board

Sahil (22:25)
Pankaj, thank you so much. This has been so helpful, I'm sure, to our listeners. I want to ask you, I'm sure, we receive a number of intake calls and a number of misconceptions are probably repeatedly coming up. So if you had to give our clients, our listeners, one piece of advice to bust a big misconception that most of our clients or most of our listeners may have about trademarks,

What would that one thing be?

Pankaj Raval (22:52)
Great question. So think one of the major misconceptions that I run into about trademarking is believing that a trade name is a trademark. And what this means is that just because you file a business, know, file an LLC doesn't mean now you have the trademark lockdown. You know, you have to be doing business with that name to actually establish trademark rights. The two fundamental requirements for a trademark

according to the USPTO are having a distinctive name and using it in commerce. Okay. And that means interstate commerce. You have to use it in interstate commerce for a fragile trademark. There are state trademarks and state trademarks do have their kind of place, but they're not very valuable. Most people don't file state trademarks not as helpful. Maybe if you have a state law claim for unfair competition in California, it's helpful to have that trademark can allege a state trademark.

infringement, but fundamentally we always go for federal trademark if possible, especially in today's world where most people are doing business across state lines and online. So I would say just making sure that you understand that a trade name is not a trademark just because you filed the name for a business does not mean you have the trademark for that business. I can help you in establishing rights potentially later on, but it needs more. You need to show more and you need to file.

Ideally, with the USPTO for a federal trademark to protect your name federally.

Sahil (24:08)
makes sense to all of our listeners. Listen up. You're all excited to start your business, but there are technicalities when it comes to protecting your name and also a huge opportunity. mean, a huge value gets unlocked by building brand equity. And the way you unlock that is through your trademark. Bunk It. Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (24:23)
Absolutely.

Sahil, so I was gonna ask you actually,

we wrap up. So Sahil, you with brands, you've built a the years. Tell us your experience value of building a brand, what it takes to build a brand, and how important brand enforcement is from your perspective of running a fashion company for 10 years.

Sahil (24:32)
Yes.

I do think it's very important and I think that that is ultimately fashion. In fashion, it's particularly important because the products change every season. We're not like a Coca-Cola or we're not selling a screwdriver. We're not selling a single product every season, which is five times a year. We come out with a brand new collection of products. So when we go out into the marketplace, our name is

what sells. are making a connection with our buyers and our buyers trust us because of our name. They trust there's a group of people behind this name who have the taste that they can trust. So that trademark is actually very important because

Pankaj Raval (25:11)
Yes.

Sahil (25:26)
If there's somebody else in fashion who comes along with a similar name, let's say, the consumer might become confused. Okay, is this the group that I've been trusting to put together wardrobe every season after season? So I do think that trademarks are really important, especially in fashion, because ultimately your name is what you're selling.

the products are continuously changing. So your name is actually the most important aspect of your business. And ultimately, if you want to sell your company, the asset that a company that would be acquiring you really is buying is your trademark because that company could put a new design team behind you, a new creative director as times change. But the thing that they're banking on is that that name has generated enough goodwill with the public that

it's valuable and it's trusted and people will check out that collection season after season because they trust name. And additionally, if you want to license that name, you want to rent your goodwill, that trademark becomes critical.

Pankaj Raval (26:27)
I feel like that real world example is very helpful because, you know, I could talk to you for, for, for ages about the importance of trademark law as a lawyer who's kind of focuses on trademarks, specifically, but I think hearing it from someone who's, you know, built a business, built a brands, I think it's, important to hear that perspective as well.

Sahil (26:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

you know, on that note, for example, if I walk into a buyer's office and I say, for example, hi, I'm from Raga or whatever brand you're part of that matters. I remember I was interning at Oberoi Hotels when I was 18 in their sales office. And the difference between getting in the door and not getting in the door was saying I'm from Oberoi Hotels.

Pankaj Raval (27:00)
Okay.

Yeah.

Sahil (27:08)
And so there is a huge value to this name. And if you don't protect it, other people are going to start leveraging all this goodwill that you've built. And you have to treat it almost like real estate. It's a real type of property that you can sell and that you can license. Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (27:22)
It's an asset. Absolutely. It's an asset. Yeah. Yeah.

there's a lot of ways to monetize it. There's a lot of ways build it. You can get, you know, loans against it, right? Based on the value of it. So, yeah, there's a waste of leverage. So, absolutely. You know, this has been a great conversation. So I really appreciate you, you leading it.

Sahil (27:37)
Yeah.

Pankaj, thank you so much. I mean, you're an expert in this field. are not a lot of people who could communicate and articulate the intricacies of trademark the way you're able to. And it is a specialty of our firm because of your expertise. So I do want to ask, where can our listeners go to learn more?

Pankaj Raval (27:55)
Yeah, so our website has tons of resources on explaining the differences of trademarks, copyrights, IP. You can reach out on Instagram at CarbonLG, well as find online. Pretty much you just Google my name, Pankaj Raval You'll reach out if you have any questions. We're always happy to chat about trademark questions, trademark issues. And easy to get in touch. We love to engage on social media.

Tell us about your stories, tell us about your experiences in building a brand, any questions you have. We really want to be resource style, right? I mean, this is why we do these podcasts. We want to provide education. We want to no cost information that can help business owners thrive. And I'm hoping we did that today.

Sahil (28:31)
Thank you so much, Pankaj Thank you so much for your time and for all of our listeners out there. Thank you for enjoying another episode of Letters of Intent. Keep making deals, keep taking risks, and we will see you next time.

Pankaj Raval (28:43)
Thank you.