We Are Feeling Machines That Think
Pankaj Raval (00:03)
All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Letters of Intent. I'm your host, Pankaj Ravel, and I'm joined by my co-host, Sahil Chaudry. Sahil, how are you today?
Sahil (00:10)
Doing great and I'm so excited for our guest.
Pankaj Raval (00:13)
Fantastic. Yes, we are very lucky today because we have a very special guest, someone I've known for a good amount of time now, you know over probably a decade. and I can't believe time has gone by that today we are joined by the multi-disciplinary, professional Judith Gordon. Judith, how are you?
Judith Gordon (00:29)
I'm great and I'm really happy to be here. love having conversations on this topic, so looking forward to it.
Pankaj Raval (00:36)
Wonderful. Judith is on the podcast today because she has a unique in being a lawyer, but also then transitioning to being a teacher, a professor at UCLA and also, understanding mindfulness and also just drives professionals, what drives people to have a more fulfilled career and life. And I feel like that's a conversation that we should always be having, always be thinking about as we, build our careers, as we live our lives. So.
You know, Judith, that in mind, you know, I want to maybe start with how you even kind of came about this world that you operate in Maybe if you can tell us a little bit more about what you do today and how you got here.
Judith Gordon (01:15)
Yeah. Well, first of I want to say that I love the title of your podcast, Letters of Intent, because a big piece of living a fulfilling life is intentionality. That having the intent, what is my intent? What kind of life do I want to lead? What is my intent for my profession? What is my intent for my family? So this intentionality seeps into everything. I, I love that. And perhaps we can hold onto that.
Pankaj Raval (01:20)
Thank you.
Yes.
Judith Gordon (01:42)
through our discussion as we talk about the various aspects of do we thrive in a hyper demanding world? I think for most of us, we have this inner drive to thrive. We have a desire to thrive, but the world around us is so intense and demanding and it's getting faster and faster. With AI, with the speed, we thought email is fast. And now before I finish typing my question into the search bar,
Pankaj Raval (02:02)
Yeah.
Judith Gordon (02:07)
I have answers. It's already predicted my question, which is part blessing of technology, but also the draining and the exhaustion and the demands. And so how do we find that balance? Something I like to call EQ Librium, because I use a lot of emotional intelligence in my work. And so how do we find balance using emotional intelligence, which in my mind is the flip side of mindfulness. Mindfulness and emotional intelligence are
Pankaj Raval (02:08)
Yeah.
absolutely.
Sahil (02:20)
So.
Judith Gordon (02:31)
two sides of the same coin. And I will get to the answer to your question. I haven't forgotten it. Yeah, so if you think about it, mindfulness and emotional intelligence are both about self-awareness, developing self-awareness, developing behavioral self-management, self-regulation, and then using curiosity to stay out of judgment. So they're essentially twins.
Pankaj Raval (02:34)
Yeah. No, no, definitely. That's so true. Yeah.
Mmm.
Judith Gordon (02:53)
So I like to use emotional intelligence because a lot of people, mindfulness is a foreign concept. And even though it's become much more mainstream and much more part of the conversation, I like to meet people where they are. So your question was, how did I get into this? So I was practicing law in New York City, and then I moved out to California and I was just going to be in California for a short time. So I decided to take a break from law.
Pankaj Raval (03:07)
Yes.
Judith Gordon (03:18)
I worked in an economic institute and that was challenging and exciting, but also highly dysfunctional. And one of the things that I noticed about the legal profession was a high level of dysfunctionality, if you will. And then every profession in which I engaged, I noticed this very high level of lack of functionality, right?
So I thought, what is it with us? What is it with humans that were so bad at communicating, that were bad at resolving conflict, that we run away from conversation? And this was even before we were married to our devices. It was still difficult to engage just to have difficult conversations. And so I got really curious about that. So I did mediation training, actually several
different types. did it the Pepperdine School of Law. They have mediation training on resolving conflict. I did it through the State Bar of California. Also, I had a mediation training. And then I studied emotional intelligence, did coach training in emotional intelligence. Because all of these spoke to me. And as you know, Pankaj, we're both meditators. We met in a meditation group for lawyers. And
Pankaj Raval (04:20)
Yes.
Judith Gordon (04:23)
And so it all came full circle, this whole idea of being able to sit with ourselves, recognize the discomfort, unpack it, and then how do I improve my relationship with myself and my relationship the world around me, with others using these tools.
Pankaj Raval (04:39)
I love
to unpack there, but sorry, go ahead, Sahil. I love to, yeah.
Sahil (04:42)
Yeah, I have a question.
Judith, did you always have sense of intentionality or was there a light bulb moment along the way in your journey?
Judith Gordon (04:50)
What a great question. I've had several light bulb moments. A huge light bulb moment for me was on my first day of contracts, on my first day of law school, and the professor walked in and in big black letters wrote the words, "never assume anything" on the board. And so as lawyers, you know that in contracts that obviously makes a difference. you assume something,
And there's, don't have agreement on the terms, then you don't have a contract. Okay. We don't need to go into that. But suddenly I realized, and it literally, felt like a light bulb went off over my head that I was living in a world with blinders on that I assumed that most people saw the world through my eyes and nothing could have been further from the truth. So it really opened me up to listening to people differently and
hearing where they were coming from. We had different upbringings, different backgrounds, different religious practices, different, even just going to different elementary schools would have an impact on forming who we are. If I grew up in New York and you grew up in California, that makes a big difference, right? And I did, I grew up on the East Midwest and East coast. So there's a whole different mindset. In fact,
I laugh because I remember when I moved out to California, I knew everybody was speaking English, but I couldn't understand them. There was a real difference in the way people were communicating in the same language. So it really opened my mind. So from never assume anything, it got me to take a step back, to become more curious, to listen better. And the intentionality
Pankaj Raval (06:13)
Totally.
Judith Gordon (06:24)
Was there a light bulb moment for the attentionality? I believe there was. I don't recall it right at the moment, but it all kind of came together in that way, starting with, wait, get out of my own way, get out of my head. And then what perspective do you have that I don't have? Where is that coming from? What information do you have that I don't have? What facts, what knowledge?
Because we all assume that we know what we're talking about, but you have knowledge and information that I didn't have access to So, yes, there were a few light bulb moments. I'm sure more will come to me as we speak, but I think if we can notice them, those moments are really, really helpful and important. Yeah.
Pankaj Raval (07:07)
I think, yeah, I love that. I love that answer. Great question too, Sahil. Yeah, because I know, it reminds me of that. There's a speech I think it was by David Foster Wallace called This is Water. I don't if you guys have seen it or read it. And it reminds me of that because I think we go about our lives oftentimes assuming, you know, someone cuts us off and our reaction is, be angry or honk or do these things. oftentimes we don't know what's going on in the other person's life.
Judith Gordon (07:16)
Yes!
Pankaj Raval (07:30)
You know, maybe something happened with a family member who's sick. Who knows, you know, what's happening with these other people. So oftentimes we're better off personally not make those assumptions, To, try to control those reactions. even if someone, you know, does something that you don't like, but oftentimes, you know, it's difficult. I think we're, conditioned in a way that, we are taught to react, but, this is also where I found meditation to be so, so valuable.
Judith Gordon (07:53)
Yeah, absolutely. I, being a former Angelino, I'm in Santa Fe now as you know, but I use a lot of traffic analogies and they're really they work and that person who cut you off, maybe just didn't even see you, you know, and what happens with us is we feel, we take it personally. We feel that that person disrespected us in some way, car just pushed in front of us and that feels
Pankaj Raval (08:01)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Judith Gordon (08:19)
disrespectful. And so if we notice, are you familiar with the tool of name it, it from Richard
Pankaj Raval (08:24)
Not particularly.
Sahil (08:25)
No, I'm
not.
Pankaj Raval (08:26)
I've heard of it, but yeah, I'd for you to explain.
Judith Gordon (08:28)
it's a
fabulous tool. And it's, I think it's like one of the first steps we can use in emotional regulation, name it, tame it. Well, so in emotional intelligence, basically what we're doing is becoming aware of the experience we're having, the internal experience. When we name it, we dissipate it because our emotions aren't meant to stick around. They dissipate within 90 seconds. But what happens is we're constantly reactivating those experiences.
So let's use your example, Pankaj, of the car cutting you off. So now upset and it could have been an accident and it could have hurt your brand new car and maybe you're going to be late now because he slowed down and he's driving too slow. And we have all this nonsense going on in our head, right? not regulating our emotional experience.
What we want to do and hopefully it doesn't escalate into road rage, right? And then it's over the top. But what I might do is notice, oh, I got cut off, I had a reaction, and now I'm I be feeling? I might be feeling disrespected or inconvenienced or whatever it is. But the moment I name it, it dissipates the experience. It reduces the frustration.
Pankaj Raval (09:18)
Right.
Judith Gordon (09:39)
And actually this tool was developed by Richard Siegel at UCLA Medical School. And he developed it for children to help them develop their emotional vocabulary and be able to learn emotional regulation. But it's obviously useful and helpful for all of us. So the moment I'm in the car and I'm driving and I just take a breath and say, that was frustrating. That was annoying.
It could have been an accident, but I'm okay. I'm just going to slow it, calm down and carry on. Focus on where, what I'm doing and where I'm going. So name it tame it is incredibly powerful. And there are neurological, functions that, that shift when you do that, physiological functions that shift when you do that. We don't need to get into all of that, but it actually does shift the experience physiologically. So.
Pankaj Raval (10:07)
No.
Yeah.
I love that. It's so true practiced this in a meditation retreat before where, and I've tried to, you know, use it in my meditation practice because like, know, whenever these emotions arise, just, yeah, the power of just naming them it really does something like you were saying system. I, I find, okay, when I'm angry, Oh, I'm feeling, I'm feeling anger or I'm feeling frustration. Maybe it you know,
loved one or spouse or whatever it might be. But oftentimes these feelings are coming up and, maybe it has more to do with you than that other person, right? Oftentimes it does. But yeah. And then, so it's just recognizing that. And I think it's such a powerful would agree.
Judith Gordon (10:54)
Thousand percent.
Sahil (10:59)
So how do you take these emotional concepts and apply fields that are considered quite logical, like law and medicine?
Judith Gordon (11:07)
Yeah, that's such a great question too. the reality is that we cannot make a decision without an emotional component. We're just not paying attention to as Dr. Antonio DiMasio says humans are neither thinking machines nor feeling machines. We are feeling machines that think. We are feeling machines that think.
So every decision that we make, every action that we take has an emotional component. So if you're analyzing a major case or you're diagnosing a patient, you have an opinion about that. You have feelings about that. They are influencing your thought process. There's no way to escape that. And we know this because what was discovered is that people who had brain damage in the areas that limit our emotional capacity,
were not able then to make reasonable decisions. They no longer had judgment. we do have, in fact, there's a great quote, I don't have it available to me right now, but that in our thinking and feeling systems in bioregulation, that emotions have an integral of bioregulation.
So even if, and think about it yourself, think about right now, take a moment, think about a matter you're working on or a client or a deal you're working on. And you may be approaching it logically, objectively as possible, but if you take a moment and think about it, you have feelings about it. You have feelings about the client, you have feelings about the deal. Is it a good deal? Is it a bad deal? Is it a better deal? Could you make it? You have these emotional experiences. Recognizing them
improves your ability to make better decisions. So you're way better off, and I think this is a problem in legal education, that we're way better off having people identify the emotional experience associated with the matter than sidelining them, because they're going to influence the decision-making and the actions that we take. So best to make better decisions, being aware of our emotional experience.
than sidelining them and perhaps making a decision that in hindsight wasn't the best one.
Pankaj Raval (13:09)
such a
Sahil (13:09)
Are there
principles that define your practice, certain values or ways of looking at the world? Do you have a unique point of view in the landscape of emotional intelligence?
Judith Gordon (13:20)
Yeah, so my starting point is that our inner environment governs the quality of our life. So the quality of my inner environment influences everything that happens. So if I am someone who is running a tape in my head that is self-deprecating, that is unsupportive, that is unhelpful, that is doubtful, that is fearful, that is scared,
then I will have a very trepidatious relationship with my environment. Part two is aligning with our values. What are the values you hold?
Because when our work and our values and what we do and what's meaningful to us, what matters to us most aren't aligned, our wellbeing plummets. When what we do, the work that we do or what we do in the world and what matters to us most are aligned, we're fulfilled, then we can be satisfied. So you'll find that people who are dissatisfied or constantly complaining or
Pankaj Raval (14:01)
Yeah.
Judith Gordon (14:19)
or just frustrated either aren't aligned with their values or aren't feeling secure in themselves. Right? So if I'm, as I said, if I'm just a grumpy person, the world doesn't look like a beautiful place. But if I'm a person who can see beauty in the world around us, then I'm going to have a better, more content experience. So those are the two.
starting points, which are my inner environment, is it supportive, is it helpful? And am I aligned with my values? Our values are, you know, that's our inner drive to thrive. What's motivating me? What gets me out of bed in the morning? Why am I here? How can I contribute? What makes sense? So those are the two driving principles. then it goes in a lot of directions from there.
Pankaj Raval (14:44)
And.
That's.
are, yeah, those are fantastic.
Yeah, those are fantastic. mean, I think, you know, those, those are, I feel fantastic insights on, how do we live our lives and what are some, principles we could, you know, live by. but let's say, a lawyer, you know, working at a big firm doing insurance litigation, and this is not what they dreamed. This is not what they wanted. How does one navigate?
you know, their life with these principles, they continue to do, be an insurance litigation associate, you know, but still live by their values if it's not aligned with exactly what they want to do in their life?
Judith Gordon (15:32)
Yes. And Pankaj, did you know I was an insurance litigation associate in a big firm? my God. I'm like, what? How did he get in my head? That's exactly how I discovered this. So, coming to where I'm at didn't just happen because I studied mediation and EQ and observed what other people experiencing. Obviously I was having my own experience of
Pankaj Raval (15:37)
I did not know. thought you did. Okay. I thought you did employment or something. I did not know that.
Judith Gordon (15:57)
frustration and dissatisfaction. it was through meditation, by the way, that I realized that there was nothing wrong with my law practice. It looked fabulous from the outside, Wonderful colleagues, good firm. You know, the work was interesting or okay. I just wasn't that interested in it. That wasn't...
where I wanted to be. And it took this quiet time, this self-reflection to recognize, ⁓ there's nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with me. It's just that that's not lighting me up. I had to figure out what lights me up. that's kind of step one is, yes, I'm in a practice. It's not quite what I wanted. What I did to alleviate that,
Pankaj Raval (16:31)
Yes.
Judith Gordon (16:42)
was I started to think about what are the aspects of the practice that do light me up? Who am I reviewing this contract for? Who's behind it? Who are the people? Because oftentimes, part of the problem in law, especially for associates, is that it's a faceless experience. It's just the the documents in front of you, but you don't have a connection to the people. And humans, like we just talked about, we're emotional beings. We connect emotionally. This is what lights us up.
regardless of what we're doing. So yes, when I started to think about who does this matter to, who am I helping? Then I really felt much more comfortable and satisfied in my practice until of course I moved and transitioned. But I've talked to different attorneys in different practices about what is it about their practice that lights them up? And so sometimes they are in a practice and they move to another one and they have found their happy place.
And some of them, you know, we're lucky enough to fall into it, but having this awareness, aligning what lights you up, what matters to you most with the work you're doing is really critical for a satisfying life. Absolutely.
Pankaj Raval (17:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sahil (17:47)
So let's say someone is attorney and they're in that situation. They're the insurance litigation associate. ⁓ What is one
Judith Gordon (17:54)
Hmm.
Sahil (17:56)
small step and they're unfamiliar with the world of emotional intelligence, maybe they haven't explored spirituality or that kind of inner world work. What's a small non-intimidating step that person could take to start walking in the direction of understanding themselves?
Judith Gordon (18:14)
The first thing I would do is do a values identification. They're all over the internet. You can download it. I think that the question of what matters to me most is one that we have to answer almost every day. What matters most today? So figuring out what matters to me most is going to answer that question of why you're dissatisfied or frustrated. Because if there's a clear disconnect, then it becomes obvious right away. Or you find that, ⁓
There are some values that align, so I can focus on those. But that would be number one. And it's a simple, simple thing to do. Go online, put values identification in the search bar. You're going to get links to any number of them. They're very quick and easy. Basically, there's a list of values. You circle the ones that you feel most aligned with, and then there's a process for prioritizing them. It's kind of fun.
It's you just circle between this one and that one, which one would I choose and between the next one and that one. And it sorts your values. So yeah, I think that would be a simple first step and it's fun. Fun is important.
Pankaj Raval (19:10)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think fun
is important. agree. And that just about comment, because I think, I've done this quite a bit, you actually journal a bit and, even just meditation. And I think, you know, if anyone's thinking about just taking that first step and just really wanting to get deeper into understanding what their values are, I think also just making sure that you're in the right head space, right? If, if you're, you know, triggered by something or if you're, if you're making the decisions or if you're deciding these things from a
from a place that you're kind of triggered in some way. I think you're gonna come up with different answers. And the thing about, as lawyers especially, we're taught to argue, we're taught to support our decisions. So sometimes it could lead us path that may not be And that may not be our own personal truth. So I just would say, make sure you're in the right space, make sure you meditate a little bit, go outside for a walk, clear your head.
because I think it's so important to do it with a fresh perspective and a fresh mind as opposed to overwhelmed by the day or whatever it might be is going on in your life.
Judith Gordon (20:08)
Yeah, I completely agree. You said something earlier about sometimes you're the problem. We have to look in the mirror because we make judgments about situations and people all day long. We are constantly imposing our opinions and our value judgments on what's happening around us. If we can take a step just question, get curious. It doesn't have to be
Pankaj Raval (20:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Judith Gordon (20:31)
Am I right or am I wrong? I like to stay away from binaries like good, bad, right, wrong, positive, negative, but just get curious. Like, what's my part in what's my role in this? then we might find out that partner that's been giving us a hard time. Maybe that partner is just trying to get me to rise to the occasion and do my best. You know, sometimes we think, oh, that partner is just a terrible, mean, demanding partner, but.
Pankaj Raval (20:50)
Yeah.
Judith Gordon (20:57)
they may see something in us that we don't see and they're just really trying to help. So we have to be able to step away from our perspective perspectives. In fact, just glanced over there because I have a disco ball and I think it's a great metaphor for the world. So every facet on the disco ball is a perspective. And if I'm on this side of the disco ball and you're on this side of the disco ball,
There's nothing wrong with either perspective. They're both valid. both, they both have their truths. They're both important, but I just can't see it yet. I have to be able to come around with curiosity to your side of the disco ball. So I think that is hopefully helpful in terms of getting out of our own way, because we to have these self-deprecating doubtful thinking. And we want to, we want to ask ourselves, is this helpful?
Pankaj Raval (21:34)
So true.
Judith Gordon (21:45)
Is this supportive? What's more helpful thinking?
Pankaj Raval (21:48)
Absolutely. I had, I love it. I love I'm sure there's a lot that. So, but I wanted to actually shift a little bit to ask another question because you are, I feel a unique position where there's not many people who have been able to navigate different careers the way you have done, do different things. And the question is about identity and attachment. And how do you view
Judith Gordon (21:48)
That's my perspective on that.
Pankaj Raval (22:10)
our changing identity and our attachment to our identity. Because one thing I find, and I personally identify with, is that, as a lawyer, I find myself being very attached to this identity of lawyer. And there's definitely an ego attachment to times. did you, I don't know, escape is the right word. How did you, you know, pull yourself away from that and detach from that idea of, okay, we worked so hard to become this thing that in society is somewhat,
somewhat prestigious, whatever it might be, did you educate yourself from that and give yourself the space to explore these different careers?
Judith Gordon (22:38)
Yes.
That's a great question. Both of you have been asking such profound, wonderful questions. Thank you. So it was hard. It was very, very hard. And I held onto it for a long time. And then what I did was I realized that that education was a doorway. That I learned a lot about humans, about the way we think and about what gets in the way of being good humans through that educational process.
and then through the practice and being able to see how so many, sadly, so many lawyers with whom I worked were unable to communicate.
really honestly with other people because of the education that we were getting. I think, I hope and I think that legal education has morphed somewhat, but this idea of teaching people to think like a lawyer and they really get stuck in that framework and they forget that they're talking to a person. This gets in the way of partner relationships and spousal relationships because they keep thinking like a lawyer when they're talking to another human being. So,
to come back to your question, when I started to see that as an education for myself, but not necessarily who I am, I still am admitted to the bar, I still have a license, I still get to say I'm a lawyer if it's relevant. What I realized was that was important to me and it mattered a lot, but I just used that education in a different way.
And it took a long time, yes, for me to not identify. There is an issue with that where people do want to realize that the profession is not for them in the way that it's set up and that there are other things we can do with that education and training. And so I feel like it was a doorway to the rest and it allowed me to morph. yes, it's, attachment is difficult.
And attachment, if you know more about this Pankaj than I do, but it really is a source of suffering. It really is. Suffering is, I think, what we want or wish. And if we can kind of take a step back and ask the question a little differently, what serves me, I think is a better question.
Pankaj Raval (24:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Judith Gordon (24:49)
It's not, I want this and I wish I had that and if only and things would be better if, and I'll be happy when. And if we take a step back and get curious about what serves me, what's best for me and what aligns with my values, then things start to kind of open up a little magically and also because we actually know what we want.
Pankaj Raval (25:03)
I love it.
Yes.
So true It's so important of a question and what serves me and, and to really sit with that. You know, I think these you've asked so many great questions over these, just a few minutes we chatted. I think everyone should really write down. I've been writing them down actually. That's why I've been looking down. I've been writing them down because you're right. These are, mean, I think it's really about living these questions and asking these questions every day or every week. You know, at some point, just making sure that you are in alignment, right? Going back to what we originally talked about, are we, are we in inner alignment?
Judith Gordon (25:19)
I could. ⁓
Pankaj Raval (25:35)
with what really us and what really allows us to live the life that we can be proud of feel good about.
Judith Gordon (25:40)
And we can thrive in this environment. It's not a simple environment, but we can.
Sahil (25:46)
Well, I'm gonna lead us now into our rapid fire round. So I'm gonna fire off a number of questions, a few, we would love to hear what's off the top of your head. So here is the first question. What book do you most often gift or recommend on emotional intelligence?
Judith Gordon (25:50)
Oof.
on emotional intelligence. Yes. There are several. I'm going to cheat and look over to my.
Pankaj Raval (26:10)
Sure. This is an open book test, so yes.
Sahil (26:11)
Sure.
Yes.
Judith Gordon (26:13)
Well,
this is, I just want to make a note. What happens is when we're under fire, the cognitive part of our brain shuts down. So, permission to feel by, okay, now I need the name of the author. He's the founder of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. So easy to find, but it's called permission to feel. And he developed a tool that I love.
Pankaj Raval (26:20)
Yeah.
Judith Gordon (26:36)
It's the mood meter. And I use it a lot to help people develop their emotional vocabulary because when we expand our emotional vocabulary, we're able to more accurately assess what our experience is. So I know that went a little beyond your question, but yes, that's the one. Permission to Feel. Right.
Pankaj Raval (26:49)
Mark Brackett is the author. Okay, Permission to Feel, yes. We'll link that in the show notes. Okay, wonderful. Yeah,
Sahil (26:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, perfect.
Well, if you could have a 30 minute conversation with anyone living or dead, who would it be?
Pankaj Raval (26:56)
yeah.
Judith Gordon (27:02)
Oh my gosh. The first name that came to mind was Mahatma Gandhi. It's just who came to mind. There are probably so many. There are many. A few others have come to mind, but I'm going to go with Mahatma Gandhi.
Pankaj Raval (27:06)
Love it. Yeah.
Sahil (27:06)
Yeah.
Perfect. What's a failure you're grateful for?
Pankaj Raval (27:15)
Amazing.
Judith Gordon (27:17)
Failure, I'm grateful for. I love this question because I think we need to change it. obviously I'm using this time to think about that. ⁓ I think we need to change our attitude about failure, know, failing forward. What did this teach me? Or how did this happen for me is a question I like to ask. What's a failure? Well, I had to take the California bar more than once. Am I grateful for it? I'm not sure, but it probably taught me
Pankaj Raval (27:24)
Ah.
Judith Gordon (27:41)
to be a little more resilient.
Pankaj Raval (27:43)
Yeah.
Sahil (27:44)
What advice would you give your younger self?
Judith Gordon (27:47)
Love yourself. Love yourself. Fall a little bit in love with yourself. This is advice I give to everyone. It's not in an arrogant way. I think it's critical to our survival. When we can recognize that we are as worthy of being here as everyone else and we can internalize some of the love and appreciation,
for ourselves that we share with others. So I can say, love and appreciate Pankaj. I've known him for more than a decade. He's added wonderful things to my life. I have to be able to also say, I appreciate what I contribute to the world. And if I don't do that, then I'll always be chasing some sort of, know, trying to fill a hole. So my advice to my younger self and to everyone,
Pankaj Raval (28:12)
you
Judith Gordon (28:30)
and anyone who might be listening, fall a little bit in love with yourself. Share some of the love and appreciation that you have for others, the admiration that you have for others with yourself. What do you admire about yourself? What qualities do you have that contribute, that make you a good parent or a good colleague or just a good person? And your experience will elevate, absolutely.
Pankaj Raval (28:41)
Yeah.
on that note, because I think it's so beautiful. And I want to say first, you know, we, very much appreciate you and, and love what you've contributed to the world and what you spread, you and the way you've done it, you Julia, think we, paths crossed for a reason, you know, many years ago. And I think the fact that we continue to stay in touch, there's a Testament to, what you offer the world and every, everyone's all the lies that you have touched. I, you I want to make sure that's,
and also, you know, just about the love because, you know, so much to be said about something that came up for me personally with my, even with my you know, because I see with my kids and, I try to be more cognizant of it, but you know, when we tell our kids, or maybe we, we correct them on, know, how they do something or they asked for our oftentimes they're seeking our approval. And I have to remind myself, and I tell my daughter this, I was like, whatever I say, doesn't matter as much as what you think of yourself. And
Judith Gordon (29:42)
Beautiful.
Pankaj Raval (29:42)
And I think that was like a message I tried to make sure hit home on because, you we think about ourselves is the most important, right? In the world any, anytime. And, we have to think, you know, kindly of ourselves. We have to think, and I know also how we act too, but also, but it starts with, I think thoughts then you can reflect that. And I try to give that to my kids, not always easy.
Judith Gordon (29:51)
Yes.
Pankaj Raval (30:06)
But I think it's so important to, especially with younger generation, whoever might be kids or you teaching Judith, just to make sure people know that it matters more about what they think of themselves than what we think of them.
Judith Gordon (30:18)
And if you think about it, Pankaj, that is so true because if I don't think well of myself and I'm their attorney or their doctor or their coach, I can't possibly really excellent top-notch services. I mean, maybe good enough, but I really believe as you say, if it's only external,
It's never going to be as good as if we have that internal confidence in what we're doing.
Pankaj Raval (30:48)
Yeah. Sorry, Sahil, to interrupt your rapid fire, but I just wanted to, yeah, I'll riff on that.
Sahil (30:51)
No, no, no, think that was, no,
no, think that's actually, that's a really beautiful point and...
I think that's a message that actually we don't get through our traditional education system. I think, a very, very important point.
just wanted to say, I think that the point that you made is really powerful because I do feel we are in our society, we are in a constant frantic, erratic search for someone else to solve our problems and to tell us who we are. And that chasing, it's never ending and it's very exhausting and it usually doesn't get us where we want to go.
And somehow there are very few sources of that message of just love yourself. actually was gonna be my last question, but I think you've answered it, which was if you could put one sentence on a billboard in every major city in the world, so you could give out your message, one simple message to the world, what would it be?
Judith Gordon (31:44)
Fall a little bit in love with yourself.
Sahil (31:46)
Yeah, beautiful.
Judith Gordon (31:47)
Just a little.
Pankaj Raval (31:48)
is too much. We see that in leaders. We see that in certain leaders too. So I think there is.
Sahil (31:50)
Yeah.
Judith Gordon (31:52)
that
fine line between arrogance, but I think it's really about appreciation. So to your point that we, we are really externally focused and just like your little girl, Pankaj, who says, daddy, did I do it right? You know, is this good? No, we, yes, that could be great, but what do you think?
Right, we really are looking externally for our validation and we have to learn to find it internally. And there are a lot of cultures that recognize that, indigenous cultures that recognize that it comes from within first so that that enables us to be more generous and to be more giving to our community and to be more involved in our community. starts internally. So I think that's an important message.
Pankaj Raval (32:35)
That's beautiful. Well, I think that's a great note end on. I can't believe we've already at 40 minutes, I felt like this was 20, but this was such a great conversation, Judith. I really want to thank you again for joining us, for sharing your wisdom and your insight. I think we could have talked probably for another hour or two all you could share with us.
Judith Gordon (32:47)
My pleasure.
Pankaj Raval (32:55)
listeners want to get ahold of you, if they want to maybe learn more about what you do and maybe share a little bit more about some of the services you provide, you do that for us?
Judith Gordon (33:03)
Sure. I have a website. It's www, do we still say that? www.judith-gordon.com. That's a hyphen. So the one in the middle, judith-gordon.com. And I'm on LinkedIn. Or they can email at judith@judith-gordon.com.
Pankaj Raval (33:07)
Haha yeah, sure.
Okay.
that said, we really want to thank you taking the time. We will have more insights and we'll be sharing this the probably next week or two everyone. then, we thank you all for your time, your insight, and you have any comments, you have any questions, please do drop them in the comments below.
Judith Gordon (33:27)
Thank
Pankaj Raval (33:44)
reach out to us if there's other topics you'd like to hear about. next time, this is Letters of Intent. Thank you so much.
Judith Gordon (33:49)
Thank you.
