Letters of Intent

[Pankaj Raval] (0:00 - 0:12)
All right, welcome back to Letters of Intent, the podcast for deal makers and risk takers. I'm Pankaj Raval, founder of Carbon Law Group, where we help founders and investors navigate the legal side of entrepreneurship and innovation.

[Sahil Chaudry] (0:13 - 0:24)
And I'm Sahil Chaudry, corporate attorney for Carbon Law Group. On this show, we unpack real stories behind high stakes decisions from funding to formation, exits to enforcement, the people actually doing the deals.

[Pankaj Raval] (0:24 - 0:35)
And today's guest is someone whose legal career has spanned Wall Street to Web3. He's not only a law veteran and partner, but now leads a venture legal at one of the most innovative funds in the crypto space.

[Sahil Chaudry] (0:35 - 1:49)
Dilveer Vahali joins us to talk about risk reinvention and what it takes to thrive where regulation and technology collide. So Captain Vahali, let's dive in. Let's do it.

So DV, I've known you for many years. We went to high school together. We were a part of Junior Statesman of America.

I've seen you publish articles in the LA Times. I've seen you be an attorney, a professor, a pilot, a sailor, a winemaker, an entrepreneur, a real estate developer. I mean, you're one of the most multi-dimensional people I've ever known.

And so I'm really excited to talk with you because a lot of the people who listen to this are attorneys and attorneys tend to be risk averse. Attorneys also tend to be kind of in one track for most of their career, but you've managed to span across multiple industries, across multiple professions. And so I want to start from the beginning so that we can figure out, how did you become who you are?

And so if we start from the beginning, I know that you grew up in a Sikh household and I wanted to start with how you feel that that shaped your identity and your ambition.

[Dilveer Vahali] (1:51 - 3:25)
Yeah, definitely. And I was just going to say, thanks for having me on Sahil and Pankaj. It's always great to be able to talk about yourself.

And actually, and talk about law and business and crypto. I always enjoy doing this stuff. So yeah, so I guess starting out in the beginning, and I guess since it's a podcast, not everyone's looking at the video, but yeah, I mean, I wear a turban, I keep my hair.

And it's interesting, I think in today's day and age, things are a little bit different than when we were growing up. I think I'm not kind of like the typical attorney that you would think of when you think of like an M&A attorney, I guess visually. And I think I use it kind of as I grew up, I think I use it more and more as a power, right?

Because people would remember me. People would, if you create that good first impression, it's people would remember my name, senior partners and things like that at the law firm. I think growing up, it was a little shakier, but I do think what I think wearing a turban does a lot of things, but I think two things in particular.

One, I think it creates kind of a community around you, people like you, Sahil, who aren't exactly kind of, they can kind of get over it or they're kind of more interested in you. And yeah, and then the second thing, and I think it creates a bit of tenacity in terms of, hey, I'm gonna see this through, I'm gonna kind of figure it out. And I think there's multiple ways to get there.

This is one of them, but I think if we're linking those two things, this would be, this is, I think, some of the benefits that I saw from wearing a turban and being sick, yeah.

[Sahil Chaudry] (3:25 - 4:57)
Yeah, I mean, for us, definitely there's a cultural connection, just being Punjabi. I mean, you and I love to drink wine in Scotland. It would be, but I think there is, yeah, there's something that I've just noticed because since high school, I mean, you're right.

At that time, we're talking about post 9-11, you did have to kind of fight your way to communicating who you are because there was so much media that was pushing an alternate narrative. I mentioned that you were published in the LA Times talking about being Sikh. And I was hoping you could talk a little bit about that article and yes, you were pushing through, but I feel like you've been someone who stood for public service and civic engagement for like ever since I can remember.

You've been someone who is dedicated to contributing to their community from the beginning, despite whatever was kind of being communicated in society. And even though things have changed now, I think you have media portrayals of Indian American, Sikh Americans in a very positive light today. But at that time, I think you were, I would credit you with being part of that wave of a community that was setting the tone to say, hey, we're actually leaders in this community, in this country.

And I just wanted to learn a little bit about like where you got that strength, especially at that time to push through and how you would describe your core values.

[Dilveer Vahali] (4:58 - 9:10)
So, I mean, it's interesting, we were joking about Diljit just kind of as an aside because yesterday at the Met Gala or two days ago at the Met Gala, I don't know if you guys saw, but he kind of- He looked like a Maharaja. And it was so, so cool to see somebody at that event kind of looking like that, and really kind of leaning into the way he looks. And so, like I said, things have changed, I think, since we were kids, because I don't think you would have seen that, right?

And I think, to your point, Sahil, I think it is about kind of finding role models and folks that you look up to and seeing people achieve is very important, right? And we had less of that growing up, but there were still folks. And when I was at Citigroup, for example, there was a gentleman named Ajay Bunga who ended up being the CEO of MasterCard.

He was a Siddhar and I just reached out to him as like a junior analyst. And I was like, hey, look, I look like you, I'd love to come meet you. And the guy would come to New York, he was the CEO of Citigroup Asia at the time.

And he'd come to New York for three days a month and he carved out an hour to come to sit down with me, because I sent that. And so things like that, I think when I talk about using your differences as a power, I think that's like a tangible example of it, right? Where it's kind of like, hey, I'm gonna take this opportunity, right?

That's available to me. The sad part about 9-11 and kind of when we were in high school is that the, and not to get too down the spiritual route, but like, look, the fact is that the turban represents like a, to me at least, like a dedication to helping folks who are in need, right? It's standing up for who you are, it's standing up for certain values and it's saying that I can't walk away from injustice.

That's really was kind of what the turban was supposed to represent. And what happened after 9-11, it became a symbol of almost like the exact opposite of that, right? And so I think the Sikh community kind of banded together and did a good job of pushing back on that rhetoric.

And also what I was very proud of the community, it wasn't just, hey, like, that's not us, that's them. It was, that was not the messaging. It's like, this is wrong, right?

To stereotype in this way. This was an individual who, you know, this was an individual attack and like, you know, don't kind of scar everybody for it. And so I think, and so kind of getting to the LA Times article.

So the LA Times article I actually wrote when I was in law school and it was called, My Turban Made in the USA. And I wrote it after, I don't know if you guys remember this, but there was a gentleman, but a guy who walked into a Sikh temple worship of Gurdwara and started shooting people in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. And it really made me sad.

It was the first time I think there was like, you know, while there was racism and other things, it was the first time where there was like a direct attack on Sikh community in the US like that, right? At least that I had been, you know, old enough to remember. And so I reached out to some friends and I was like, look, how can I help?

Like, what can I do? And they said, look, you know, we really need folks to write opinion pieces, to write op-eds, to talk about who we are. And it was really cathartic for me.

I sat like, you know, for a whole night, I was just writing, you know, I think I wrote 20 pages and then cut it down to like, you know, four or five. I had friends kind of help me with that. And what kind of came out was the message that I kind of saw woven through this.

And I think this kind of goes for my life too, is like, these things are not incongruent. Being Sikh, being Indian is not incongruent with being American, right? In fact, they're very similar, right?

In fact, and that's what I talk about in the article, like when you actually read some of the quotes from Guru Nanak Devji or others, like it's very similar to like the Declaration of Independence, the preamble, right, to what Thomas Jefferson is writing. And so that's what I was trying to compare. And so for me, and what was very, quote unquote, hurtful, even like 9-11 or Oak Creek and things like that, is like, I've always viewed myself as a Sikh, but also very much as an American.

And so, and I never have viewed those things as different. So that's kind of, I guess, where that came from.

[Sahil Chaudry] (9:10 - 9:26)
So I think that that sets us up really nicely for as we transition to talk about your career. You know, after high school, you went to Hopkins. And then after that, you were at USC for law school.

[Dilveer Vahali] (9:27 - 9:37)
Well, I was, yeah, yeah. So I went to, I was on Wall Street for after Hopkins for about three, two years, two years, yeah, yeah.

[Sahil Chaudry] (9:37 - 9:40)
Okay, and this is when you were at, you were at Citigroup.

[Dilveer Vahali] (9:40 - 9:42)
Citigroup, yeah, I went after Johns Hopkins, yeah.

[Sahil Chaudry] (9:42 - 9:49)
Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about your time at Citigroup and how that, what kind of experiences you had and how that formed your perspective on your career?

[Pankaj Raval] (9:49 - 10:00)
I just wanna know like, why too? Like, why choose Wall Street, you know, after Johns Hopkins? And did you have like, did you have a kind of like an idea of where you wanted to take your career or you were just kind of taking it one step at a time?

[Dilveer Vahali] (10:01 - 11:54)
Great question. So, I mean, like, if we think back to college, right, I was, I went in and the reason I went to Johns Hopkins was actually I thought I wanted to be a diplomat. And they had a great international relations program.

That's what I was kind of gunning towards. But what I liked about IR, and this is, as you can see, a theme throughout my life is like, it's a little bit of everything, right? It's like, it was like language, history, you know, politics, and a little bit of science even mixed in.

So, right, so it's like, that was a multidisciplinary kind of approach. And so my older sister was an attorney. I thought that's what I wanted to do.

I kind of knew that I wanted to do a JD MBA going into college. But as I kind of progressed, I was like, look, I don't, and my parents very much like, you know, that immigrant mentality of like, get schooling done and then go get a job, you know, like all that kind of stuff. And so I was very much kind of following that path of like, let me finish my schooling.

But at some point, I had a bunch of friends, you know, this is sometimes how it happens, going to Wall Street. And the firms were coming down to interview and things like that. And I had an economics background, a minor in economics because of IR, you know, you had to do a bunch of econ too.

And I was like, you know what, let me think about this for a little bit. I think I want some seasoning. I want to be kind of, I want to have joined the workforce before I go straight into law school.

And so that's kind of really where it came from initially. I kind of knew I wanted to do law eventually, but I was like, let me try this for a little bit. So yeah, so the first hurdle was kind of pushing back on my parents and being like, hey, I want to work for a few years.

And they're like, you know, oh, but then you're going to like lose focus. And this and I'm like, look, I promise you guys, like I won't, I absolutely want to go back and get a law degree. And that's still my focus, but I think this will be really good to experience.

And I wanted to go, you know, you have the other soft factors. I want to go live in New York for a couple of years, like, you know, in my twenties and kind of enjoy that.

[Pankaj Raval] (11:54 - 12:18)
I feel like that's the best time to be in New York. You know, if I could do over, that was one thing I would have loved to have done is like be in New York in my twenties because such a fun place to be. That's amazing.

What did you, you know, at Citigroup, what was your kind of takeaway? What was your experience with, you know, M&A, working in New York, working in corporate, was it the crazy hours that everyone talks about and what was that like? And how did it set you up for the rest of your career?

[Dilveer Vahali] (12:19 - 12:24)
I was at Citigroup at a very interesting time, which ended up being, right, I was there from 2007 to 2009.

[Pankaj Raval] (12:24 - 12:25)
Oh, wow. Okay.

[Dilveer Vahali] (12:25 - 17:22)
Yeah, and so I joined- Million based. Yeah, I joined Citigroup. And when I joined, I was in the internal mergers and acquisitions and strategy group.

So it wasn't actually like the sexiest banking group in the beginning because we were internal facing, but it quickly became a huge focus, like as all everything else crumbled, right? And so ended up being, like you said, like in the belly of the piece, it was an amazing experience for me, frankly, right? So when I joined in 2007, just to give you, you know, like, again, a tangible example, I think the stock price was like 55 bucks a share or something like that.

When I left, we were under a dollar. Yeah, not my fault. Not my fault, right?

But so I joined and Chuck Prince was the CEO. We had this whole big kind of fanfare thing. And within six months, like the subprime mortgage crisis started coming to light, right?

And so when I joined, it was like, we would all take, each analyst would take a couple of banks. We would think about like, we were acquisitive, like, hey, we wanna buy these small banks, like regional banks in the Midwest. I think I had a couple that I was covering, things like that.

And we'd update our models. And we'd give quarterly reviews. And then suddenly it became, hey, we need cash.

What can we sell, right? And so it very quickly became that. So the hours in the beginning, because of an internal facing group were like, okay, but like by the end of it, it was nuts, right?

You're, you know, you'd be going out on a Friday night and suddenly at three in the morning, you get a text, like, you need to come in tomorrow because we're thinking of buying Lehman Brothers. You know, like, and it was, but it was super interesting, right? Being in the room at some point, like a fun war story, right?

So then after Chuck Prince, I think, was fired or left, Vikra Bandit came in, right, as CEO. And then you had, we kind of were restructuring the bank and we decided at some point to buy Wachovia, right? And Wells Fargo on the West Coast had made this really nice bid, but we kind of worked through the weekend.

We got it for a very low price and we were in the process of buying it. We had signed the agreement, everything was done. And I remember walking away from the office and I was in charge of sending all of the bank's kind of diligence requests to Wachovia, to this one guy, and then he'd send me back stuff and I'd distribute it.

That's what my job was, you know, for a little bit. And I remember like Tuesday or when, like, you know, I think we signed the agreement on Sunday night, Monday, Tuesday, super great. By Wednesday, you know, the pipelines are slowing.

And I remember telling my MD at the time, like, I don't know what's going on, but I, you know, can't get responsive to this stuff and things are moving very quickly. And I think next morning it comes out that Wells had done a backroom deal and bought Wachovia, you know, from us. And then it was like, it was, then it was like, you know, and it was like, I remember, you know, spending literally like the night in conference rooms at Wachtell in New York.

But the coolest thing was like, I was just there as a representative of my group, who was like, you know, doing the analysis and I was supposed to go and the whole, a bunch of the board members, like Rob Rubenstein, who was I think Clinton's like treasury secretary, Vikram Pandit, all these guys are walking around and I'm tasked with like, they would send me an analysis and all I was doing was printing it and then finding the person to give it to, right? But, and like, I literally would be, some of these folks, I didn't know who they were, but you like Google them, you know, and you're finding them on the website and then trying to figure out where they are in the room. It was fascinating because when, you know, I was doing that and a little bit more, but I would kind of linger a little bit, right?

And you'd hear the conversation and like how these guys do business. It brought up two things though. One, it kind of showed me like, you know, the inside workings of like, you know, massive bank.

It showed me kind of what happens and, you know, really an unprecedented crisis, right? And how, and you could see who was good and who wasn't, right? You could also see kind of like who maintained that calm, that composure.

And so it starts kind of helping you form your professional identity, I feel like. The other thing it did is it made me realize that I really did want to go to law school and have a hard skill. Because I was like, look, even if I go this route at some, you know, as a lawyer, at the end of the day, if all else fails, you can hang a shingle up, right?

And do cases at the end of the day or whatever else. And I mean, Sahil, you're an entrepreneur. You came back to law after so long, right?

And it's like, it's that hard skill that you can always rely on. And I think it was, I think seeing the financial crisis from the inside was part of the reason that I was like, okay, like I want to go to law school. So I had the kind of, the offer to stick on after the two years.

But at that point I decided I would leave and I would take a year off actually. And which was also, again, like a whole thing. But I was like, look, I'm never gonna get this again in life, you know, to be able to do this.

I knew that I wanted to do a JD MBA. I absolutely didn't have the time to do LSATs and GMATs and stuff like that while working. So I just, you know, at the end of the program, I gave in my resignation and I came back to LA and I basically started studying and doing other stuff.

[Pankaj Raval] (17:22 - 17:45)
It's really smart. I feel like, you know, if anyone's thinking about going to law school, make sure you allocate the time to study and, you know, for the LSAT and make sure you have that focus. Because I've seen like a lot of really, really smart people not be able to pass the, well, not LSATs, but even the bar, because they just didn't make the time to do that.

So I think that that was really smart to take that time off, that almost that sabbatical to focus on that. So, yeah.

[Sahil Chaudry] (17:46 - 17:57)
I want to go from, okay, so you get your JD MBA at SC. Now you could have gone a business direction or a law direction, but you join, do you join Kirkland right out the gates?

[Dilveer Vahali] (17:58 - 18:51)
I did, yeah. And one of the things I realized when at Citigroup was like this combination of the business mind and the legal mind is very powerful. So I've like spent the rest of my career getting, trying to get back.

And I think I'm kind of getting there now to a place where you're using both and you're recognized for using both. I really, what I realized in Citi is like, I really enjoyed the deal making aspect. I really enjoyed the negotiation and all of that.

I felt like on the business side, there was like, you absolutely negotiated, but to an extent, right? There was, it's kind of about the, it's more about the numbers and the pricing and things like that. On the legal side, it was like unlimited.

Like you're negotiating everything, right? And I really actually liked that aspect of it. And so, I'm forgetting the question now, but I think you're basically saying why did I choose law over business?

[Sahil Chaudry] (18:51 - 18:58)
Right. And then if you could kind of talk a little bit about your early years at Kirkland and what that experience was like.

[Dilveer Vahali] (18:59 - 20:48)
Yeah. Yeah. So I did the JDMB at USC and I loved USC, by the way.

And then I came out of that and I had this offer from Kirkland. I wanted to really solidify my legal skills, right? Before I decided to go back over to the other side.

And actually Kirkland gave me some good credit for the MBA as well. I think I came in like a year up, which was nice. And so, that was really my thought process of like, hey, I'm coming out of law school.

This is this hard skill. Let me solidify it and really understand like how to be an M&A attorney. Kirkland did mostly like private equity, M&A, LBO work, right?

So it was, what I didn't appreciate, I started kind of learning at Citigroup and then much more so at Kirkland is that M&A in and of itself is a product, right? Like you can kind of be industry agnostic. And so that's kind of even why I've been able to transition onto like a Web3 role at this point in time, because there's certain principles as both you guys I'm sure know, right?

That like basically go through every deal, right? These are the same things in every deal. And then I can hire the specialists that I need for my consumer deal versus my IP deal versus my Web3 deal.

And so those years for me were great to kind of solidify that. And while I was at Kirkland, I actually did a secondment to a real estate private equity fund, which was another interest of mine. I still do real estate on the side.

That year that I took off before law school, I spent kind of getting familiar with LA's real estate, buying kind of an investment property and also getting my pilot's license. So I was like, I had this whole bucket list of stuff that I wanted to do when I had that year off. I think I also signed up to be a background actor and did this show called Outsourced for a Minute.

[Pankaj Raval] (20:48 - 20:50)
Yeah, Outsourced for a Minute, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that show.

[Dilveer Vahali] (20:51 - 21:13)
I'll tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, you're not gonna get this time back, right?

It was like my thought process. So that was kind of my experience at Kirkland. Great firm.

It's a grind for sure. And it's one of those though, like when you come out, you have like this good kind of stamp, right? Of like, hey, I was a Kirkland partner, and I was there for a little over six years.

[Sahil Chaudry] (21:14 - 21:48)
So here's a very interesting leap because I feel like there are a lot of people who might say, okay, I made partner at Kirkland. That's it. I'm not, that's my career.

I'm gonna just keep going down that road. And you made a decision that I think not a lot of attorneys would make, which is to leave big law after making partner, which is a big challenge. And it's a big achievement, but you leave to go on to become the deputy GC at Churning Group.

Tell us a little bit about that decision and what made you decide to take that risk?

[Dilveer Vahali] (21:49 - 22:51)
Look, there was two steps of partner at Kirkland, right? And just to be clear, kind of, I had made that first one, but I looked ahead and I was like, even five years, six years down the line, like the life is not really what I wanted. For some folks, that's what it is.

And like, it's a lot of money, it's a lot of work and it's a lot of client development, things like that. And I think that's generally, when you talk about big law, when folks are looking a little bit ahead, that's what they're, that's generally the reason you jump out. I think I had in my head to at least get to partner before I did that, but I don't think I was ever like a forever law firm person.

So once I got the title of partner, then I started looking around. Now, again, like, I kind of explained this business law kind of thing was floating around in my mind. I wanted to find a position that started to kind of gather both, right?

Which is a little bit tricky because when you start going in-house, nobody wants to hear a lawyer say, I wanna be a business person, right?

[Pankaj Raval] (22:52 - 22:57)
And so, so like, you know, you can kind of- Very good piece of advice, that people should be listening to.

[Dilveer Vahali] (22:57 - 24:16)
Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent, right? Like, I mean, if a bunch of your listeners are in-house counsel, they don't wanna hear anybody they're hiring saying, hey, I wanna go on the business side.

I wanted to like kind of test the role where you could actually, you know, my questions in the interviews were a little bit more like, hey, like how much impact do we have here? How does the deal process work? And what I realized is, is like we're on the private equity side.

The business folks are very much involved on the, in the documents, like kind of negotiating every point, you feel like directly with the law firm. What I realized, I think in like venture and growth equity, the business folks are much more involved in sourcing the deals. Like they're not using bankers and things like that.

And the lawyers, the in-house counsels are really the ones who are kind of running the deal processes. And I really liked that. And that's kind of how it was at Charnin as well.

And so I basically, you know, that's one of the reasons I jumped over and they did, you know, it was growth equity. We had like a, I think 1.3 or $1.4 billion fund and we were investing in consumer businesses and, you know, it was a really interesting business model because these folks were really good at consumer stuff. This was kind of in the middle of COVID, things were, you know, people are sitting at home, buying a bunch of stuff online.

We were, our portfolio companies were doing great, which we weren't really ready for the next year after that.

[Pankaj Raval] (24:17 - 24:21)
But that year was awesome. Or probably now, you know, with all the tariffs and everything.

[Dilveer Vahali] (24:21 - 24:25)
Oh yeah, exactly. Or now, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

[Sahil Chaudry] (24:25 - 24:32)
Yeah. So you go from Charnin then and what is your next step in your career?

[Dilveer Vahali] (24:33 - 24:57)
So Charnin, you know, I joined, I kind of learned this consumer business. We were super busy for a while. And at some point we raised a crypto fund.

Okay. And the only experience I had had with crypto really up till then was like, I invested one of my Kirkland bonuses into like Ethereum. Right, because, you know, somebody told me it was like, quote unquote, like fishing, shoot, no, shooting fish in a barrel.

[Sahil Chaudry] (24:57 - 24:58)
Right.

[Dilveer Vahali] (24:59 - 27:16)
Which I saw. And then I ended up buying at the top and it immediately, you know, went to like 10% of what I had invested. But that, you know, like it always does.

But that was like really the extent, like I kind of knew what these things were, but not really. And so we raised this crypto fund and my GC was kind of like, you know, DB, this is something I don't really want to deal with. It's a small, you know, it was 10% of the other fund size.

Why don't you kind of go figure this out? And so, you know, I started kind of a little bit skeptical of like, this is, you know, a little bit weird, but I ended up really enjoying it. And I really enjoyed it for a few reasons.

One of which was, it's really kind of like the wild west of law generally, but also corporate law, you know, to young folks. I think they're in need of attorneys, right. In terms of like actually creating structure.

It's the first time institutional capital is flowing into this system. So there was a lot of like teaching, frankly, right. There was a lot of teaching, but there was also a lot of not being a suit, right.

If whatever that means, right. Because there was this whole ethos about like decentralized finance, like moving away from like the wall street types, right. Moving away from all that formality.

So then you're coming in and you're saying, hey, I want all these rights, or I want this, this, and this. And a lot of these folks would balk at it, right. But they don't even know what they want.

And so I found that space to be fascinating, right. Especially like, I'm coming from like a very structured, like private equity, like venture capital type background into like where you're creating your own rules. You're creating the market really.

Like what do you get in a deal, right. And so I found that really fascinating. And so what ended up happening was I started spending more and more time with the crypto fund, even though it was only 10% of like the main portfolio.

And my boss at times was like, why don't we bring somebody else in to kind of take the deputy GC role. And why don't you move over and become like the COO GC, basically de facto of the crypto fund. So that's what I did for a while.

And that's how I kind of got into the quote, unquote, industry in the beginning, which was great until kind of, you know, everything hit the fan in later in 2022. And then, you know, we were kind of trying to figure out whether, you know, needed a full-time attorney there or not, things like that. And then I started looking around at other positions.

[Pankaj Raval] (27:17 - 28:20)
The crypto space is so fascinating. You know, I dabble, I've bought, you know, a lot of shit coins, you know, and the theory of it, I held out a couple, I have a couple of Bitcoin, you know, I'm hoping that I can retire off them in about 10 years, you know. But, you know, I think it's interesting because, you know, when it's really hot, people have come to us, even at Carbon Law Group and say, hey, can you help us with these, you know, these deals, like instead of like a SAFE, a SAFT, you know, things like that.

You know, you talk about, okay, you're kind of, you're really kind of setting the rules. I'd love to know a little bit more about, you know, just how did you approach, like how did you educate yourself first about blockchain and crypto? And then also, how did you deal with the uncertainty?

Because as a lawyer, you know, I think it's kind of challenging personally to say, okay, well, we don't really know. You know, we don't know what's going to happen here. The SEC still hasn't decided, you know, in 2025, how it's going to treat some of these things.

So how do you deal with uncertainty? And also like, first, how did you educate yourself and get up to speed and feel confident that you could speak on these issues?

[Dilveer Vahali] (28:23 - 32:58)
Yeah, great, great questions. So yeah, it felt like drinking from a fire hose for a while, right? And I think a lot of it was I would sit down with like our investors and I'd be like, dude, explain this to me, like a kid, right?

And be like, what is a level one versus a level, layer one, let's say I'm calling it level, layer one versus a layer two, right? Oh, by the way, I should say, none of this is financial advice, not trying to endorse any specific tokens or companies. But I literally would sit down and try and, I tried to read a couple of the white papers.

I sat down with our investors and tried to understand what these companies do, right? And then I spent a lot of time with outside counsel who kind of, you know, had a better handle on this stuff with me. Then I did one of them recommended there was, I think it was called the Dow report.

It was like the first, one of the first kind of SEC opinion papers that came out kind of walking through how we test in kind of why tokens, you know, their view at that time were securities or why this specific one was. And so started kind of understanding that regulatory stuff. But if I take a step back, right, as a transactional attorney, right?

And there are certain principles that like, no matter what the investments in are gonna stay true, right? You know, you start thinking of, okay, I'm investing in this business, right? Where is the revenue being generated and where is it flowing?

And this was a question you go ask the business folks. Hey, I wanna make sure that we're covered, right? Like I understand that these folks might issue this thing called a token, right?

Whatever that is for a minute, right? Can some of the revenue escape that way, right? Yeah, okay.

So the answer is yes, yes. Okay, so then when I'm putting money in, where do I expect the money to be coming out? Do I expect it in the equity or do I expect it in the tokens?

And really the answer would be like, we don't know, right? Because at the end of the day, you know, or you have, and not to get too deep into all that, but you have like utility tokens, right? Or you have like, you know, your meme cones on one side, you have, you know, gaming where you'll play a game and you'll get tokens for doing certain tasks in the game.

So there's various different ways you can generate these tokens. But really the approach that I initially came up with, and, you know, this is again, like market was also kind of going this way is, I would just wanna make sure that I'm putting money in, I'm seeing that same percentage of ownership in anything that the company creates, right? And so this whole, initially it was tough because the market was very hot.

So it's like, hey, let's say I'm putting in 10 million bucks I'm getting 10% of the equity of a company, they would limit it to that. But you're like, no, I also want, if you ever create a token, or if you create another off source of revenue, I want, you know, the same interest in that. Okay, so then what do you call that?

So we started calling them like token side letters. Then we started calling them token warrants, right? And so now like the industry standard generally is I make an equity investment and I get that same percentage in a token warrant.

And then as you start negotiating these deals, right? Like the market's also evolving, remember, right? And so the pain points like start becoming visible.

Now it's like very clear, when I go into negotiate a token warrants, like these four or five things, right? It's like, is it dilutable or is it non dilutable? Meaning when I put in, this is just one example, but I put in 10 million bucks, I have 10% of the equity, but they go raise other rounds.

So now by the time they issue the token, my 10% is worth 6%, right? So do I get 6% of the tokens? Because that's when they launched the tokens or do I still get like 10% from when I made the investment?

So we always fight for non dilutable, right? And so when we can get it and when there's a good argument for it, and you can imagine that like there's a host of other things that come out from there, like you start pulling on that thread. You know, what happens if one of the founders leaves and like creates another token that's very similar based on the company IP, do we get rights in that?

How long is the look back for? You know, so all of these, but all of these issues in my mind were very similar to investing in a startup and the founder leaves and goes, you know, then like how long do you have your non-compete provisions, right? And so you can, I think everything, it's kind of like, I mean, going back to law school for a minute, it's kind of like, you know, taking the constitution and applying it to a lot of different, you know, areas, right?

Like this, you know, this one principle can apply to like, you know, whatever, the fourth amendment can now apply to computers and like how we search computers. It's the same thing, right?

[Pankaj Raval] (32:58 - 33:41)
Like M&A principles, I think can apply in a very similar way to- It's so interesting, you know, it's so true, you know, there are foundational elements of contracts, of corporate law that I think apply across the board. And I think it really takes a creative thinker, it takes someone who's willing to kind of step into uncertainty to actually think about, okay, how do you apply these in innovative ways? How do you apply these principles in innovative ways, which I feel like you've done and very, very impressed, you know, by kind of how your trajectory and it's been really interesting because the crypto space has always been fascinating to me.

I also tried reading like a white paper on Bitcoin a while back. I got like, honestly, like four pages in, I'm like, yeah, you know, where was AI when this was happening? You know, I could have had it summarized for you.

[Dilveer Vahali] (33:41 - 33:42)
Yeah, exactly, yeah.

[Pankaj Raval] (33:42 - 34:08)
So, so actually, you know, that kind of now takes us down, you know, kind of more currently in your current position, you know, at CoinFund. What do you see as the, you know, the future of the crypto market and also how do you look at deals today versus maybe five years ago? And how do you guide the decision-making process?

What does even your decision-making process look like when you're looking to invest in these different companies?

[Dilveer Vahali] (34:09 - 36:05)
Just to talk about the position, you know, quickly, like when I left the churning group and I was coming over to CoinFund, I was very clear now about like this business side that I had and what I wanted to do. And I was kind of more open about that. And they were looking to hire somebody.

And what was very cool about this position is just to do deals, right? They're very clear that we have a general counsel. It was great.

I report up to him and he kind of handles compliance and our trading policies, you know, as well as kind of your general kind of general counsel duties of like the day-to-day stuff. And they were like, hey, we want somebody to kind of handle like the deal side because our investors are spending, our investment team is spending a lot of time on that. I was like, that's perfect.

Cause that's what I enjoy doing. I enjoy doing deals. And so, so coming into CoinFund, what I've really tried to do is like, I think of myself as like deal execution department, right?

Where our investors, our investment team, they have a great sense of like the market, what's, you know, what's good, what's not good, how things work. Yeah, they have contacts throughout the industry. So they kind of go out and source these deals and then they'll come back and they'll say, hey DB, this is what I'm thinking about doing.

And I'll take that, I'll turn it into a term sheet and I do that in house. And then after the term sheet stage, then we'll hire kind of outside counsel. We'll take it through to signing and funding the deal, right?

So that's whatever that is like the diligence effort, things like that. And I'm trying more and more to formalize certain processes in house. Like, hey, when you come here's a questionnaire you fill out, right?

And so what it does is it also gets the investors kind of thinking about deals in a different way, right? Like, do I want a board seat? How much control, you know, do I want over this business?

Like what protections do I want, right? As a preferred shareholder, like should we be able to, you know, opine on when and why they launch a token, you know, and things like that. So now thinking back to your question.

So you're kind of asking kind of how deals have evolved in this space.

[Pankaj Raval] (36:05 - 36:09)
And what do you see like happening in the next few years within the crypto space?

[Dilveer Vahali] (36:10 - 39:25)
Yeah. So when I came in, by the way, to CoinFund, the other thing was what I really like about this current firm to speak about CoinFund for a minute is it's a lot of transplants from traditional finance, right? One of the frustrations I had is like, you had a lot of cowboys, you know, who are like, this is, oh, we're changing everything.

Without understanding what traditional finance and traditional like investing rules are, it's very difficult to then come in and like, you can like create a whole new ecosystem. Oh, I got to blow it up, right? But you're really reinventing the wheel in certain ways, right?

Like there are principles you can take and apply. And like you said, like what I really like about it, it's a creative industry, right? Especially as a lawyer, it absolutely does take a little bit more risk.

And I think it's about being very clear about what I know, what I don't know, right? Even when I came in, I was like, look, I don't know all the technical aspects of things, but I can figure it out, right? And I know enough folks where I can go to them to ask, and I'll be very clear about what I don't know, right?

And I, so that was one. The other is like, when you don't know, and I'm being clear about it, right? It's kind of finding the experts to weigh in on, you know, on certain things.

Like there was a case is UkiDAO case, right? Where basically funds had invested in this DAO, DAO blows up. And the, I think the state or the SEC didn't recognize the limited protection, the limited liability protection layer.

So now anybody who had claims against the DAO could go sue the individual investors, which that's kind of stuff that helps me not sleep at night, right? And so, you know, you start thinking around, okay, so now should we not, like, A, should we not invest in DAOs? Or B, like, are there other things that we can, other steps we can take, you know, which will protect us, right?

Like, do you, now we look at, you know, LLC wrappers, right? Where you invest in an LLC, the LLC then owns the DAO, because the whole point of a DAO is that it was supposed to be its own kind of legal framework. But there was another, there was actually, I think he was a professor at Cardozo in New York.

He started this whole movement about, like, creating an LLC wrapper around the DAO, so then you go in like that. But this is all innovative, right? So it's being very clear with the business folks as well.

And we, like, in the beginning, we did these really extensive memos of, like, these are all the things that can go wrong. Not to be too much of a lawyer, but these are all the things that can go wrong, just so you're aware, right? Like, you know, if we invest in DAOs, this is what might happen.

And it's part of this whole ethos, and I think being in-house, you know, folks will, this will ring true, is, like, not being a no attorney, right? Being, it's like a, what do we call it? Like a yes and, right?

Attorney, right? Because otherwise people stop coming to you, and you stop being a resource if you're just gonna be like, no, we can't do that. No, we can't invest in DAOs anymore.

And you're like, well, look, the market's going this way. How the heck are you, like, blocking me from investing in this? Now, obviously, it is sometimes having tough conversations and being like, if it, you know, if this happens, it's gonna create too much risk for our investors, and, like, being smart about approaching it that way.

But it's being very clear and upfront about, here are the risks. Here's what we don't know.

[Pankaj Raval] (39:26 - 40:28)
And things like that. I think it's so, I mean, it's so interesting, and I think it's so insightful. I mean, what you're telling me, I feel everyone needs to learn, especially if you're in finance, if you're a professional, if you're a lawyer, you know, think about becoming a lawyer or a lawyer.

I felt like one thing I took away from what you just said is just the importance of admitting what you don't know is such a valuable skill that not enough people do. Not enough people have the humility to be able to check their ego and say, you know, I don't know this, especially in situations where maybe there are people looking to them to know things. But I think as a lawyer, such a valuable skill that I feel like anyone who's listening, who's thinking about becoming a lawyer or a lawyer, needs to definitely employ more in their career.

And I think it'll take you further. I mean, what I see also is that you've gotten, as far as you've gotten, I think also by willing to say, I don't know, and learning from people around you. And also it sounds like you've also surrounded yourself with a lot of really smart people and found really smart mentors.

I'd love to know a little bit more about how you found people to guide you and maybe mentors in your career and how that has shaped who you've become.

[Dilveer Vahali] (40:31 - 44:03)
Yeah, that's a good question. I think in web three, like if I'm thinking specifically here, it's been more about learning through osmosis, kind of making sure you're in the room, asking a lot of questions, like you were just kind of pointing out, thinking, telling people what you know and what you don't know and what you kind of go figure out. I think the other, in terms of finding mentors generally in your career, law firms do these very formalized mentorship programs.

You have affinity bar associations like the South Asian Bar Association, which I think was great for me. I think it gives you access to folks that you wouldn't normally have access to. You then also have folks you naturally kind of, you look up to and then you start having conversation.

Now, going back to even at the law firm, when you think about mentors, it's like, at least this might be specific to kind of transactional law, but when you send out an agreement, you redline it, right? And so the first cut comes back to you as let's say the associate. You take your first cut and before it goes to the client, somebody senior is gonna review it and make their own edits.

I think one of the most powerful things to do is to redline that against your own draft, right? See the changes that were made and go to that person and be like, hey, thanks for this. I just need some time.

I wanna understand why you made these changes. Now, it doesn't happen every time, but like making sure to do that. And it almost, it gives you such a window into someone's thinking of specifically why they did this.

And then kind of, you can figure out like, hey, that makes sense to me or maybe that doesn't make as much sense to me, but now next time I have a roadmap to do that. So I would do that a bunch at the law firm. I probably bugged a bunch of folks, which is also another, like I'm fully remote now at this stage of my career, but when I was junior and I tell my students this at SC, I 100% think you should be in the office because there's so many valuable learning opportunities I think you miss out on like that instead of like just walking down the hall, being able to kind of talk to folks casually, right?

Like not like I'm setting up a Zoom call to like to review this agreement, to be able to have those casual conversations. So I'm a big believer in that. And I'm a big believer in using like every resource you have available to you, right?

Like, Plunkage, I heard you talking about in some of your other podcasts about like joining these networking things and things like that. Another thing I talked to my students a lot about at USC, because I think networking almost gets this like, it has this like negative connotation in law school and people are almost afraid of it. And to me, networking is like, doesn't necessarily mean going into a room, being like the loudest person, getting a bunch of business cards and writing notes to follow up or whatever.

I mean, it can be, but to me, networking is like, hey, I'm gonna just put myself in the room and I'm gonna like, maybe I'm gonna meet one or two people and maybe they'll be beneficial, maybe they won't, but I'm gonna make that effort. And I always tell students this too, but law school has such a focus on understanding the substance. And I think that's number one, right?

Being a good attorney, understanding the law, understanding legal concepts is number one, but a close number two is also knowing the right people, right, is also being in the room, is also putting yourself out there. So I'm a huge believer in kind of being in the room, right? And so I will kind of take any opportunities that I have, even if I don't see an immediate benefit.

So it's those types of things.

[Pankaj Raval] (44:04 - 44:11)
I love it. That's such super valuable, super valuable advice. Yeah, no, I mean, I think people should really be taking notes at this point, if you haven't started already.

[Sahil Chaudry] (44:11 - 44:39)
Yeah, I know, seriously. I wanted to briefly circle back, D.V., to your deal-making philosophy. So you're in an environment with decentralized models.

It sounds like you've taken a lot of principles from M&A. You're applying them to a new space where the regulation isn't completely fleshed out. So if you had to describe your deal-making philosophy, how would you describe it?

[Dilveer Vahali] (44:39 - 46:17)
I firmly believe, and one of the reasons I chose to be a transactional attorney versus litigation, I did one summer where I was doing litigation and I did not enjoy it, even though after leaving Citigroup, I thought that's what I wanted to do. I quickly realized I was not cut out for that. I think the biggest thing about deal-making is growing the pie by being like, by customizing your approach, right?

Because I think there's a lot of times where people sit up here and are general and then they're at loggerheads because they view everything as a zero-sum game. And now, sometimes it is, right? Sometimes there are points that are a zero-sum game.

But a lot of times, if you kind of start really understanding what the other person wants, you can then kind of apply what you need and create a concept that kind of fits for both. So like really expanding the pie versus being a zero-sum game. And I really try and do that.

And especially in crypto, you can be very creative, right? And I think that's what really separates attorneys who kind of to get it done versus like folks who are just going in and charging in the room. And by the way, sometimes I think you have to be that way.

I think there's a bunch of folks that I've dealt with who might think that I've been aggressive or abrasive, right? Because I think there are times where you have to be that. But I think I really do try and figure out if we can achieve multiple objectives with one point.

And I was trying to think of any tangible examples, but nothing's coming directly to mind right now, but I'm sure I will right after we finish the call.

[Pankaj Raval] (46:17 - 47:02)
That's all good. Before we get to some advice that you might give people, I'd love to learn a little bit more also about the Renaissance person that is DV, the multifaceted skills that you have and how that even, are you just generally interested in a lot of different things and that's what made you kind of pursue these different interests? I'd love to know how you approach learning and life in a way that it sounds like you haven't defined yourself as just an attorney.

And this maybe gets to a deeper question about even what we call identity, but it sounds like you've been intentional about being multifaceted. We'd love to know where that comes from and what gives you the most joy in your life today.

[Sahil Chaudry] (47:03 - 47:08)
For our audience, I just wanna list out what he's talking about.

[Pankaj Raval] (47:08 - 47:14)
He's too humble probably to say it himself, so yeah. Yeah, I wanna list this out, tee up this question.

[Sahil Chaudry] (47:14 - 47:25)
Pilot, sailor, winemaker, professor, and attorney. And if I've left something out, you've got to- And father now, father too. And now, yeah, that's a father.

[Dilveer Vahali] (47:25 - 50:32)
Yeah, father, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm exhausted, that's why I'm not sleeping much. I was talking to Sahil about this, I think earlier this week.

When I left Big Law, I was like, I was really kind of deeply thinking, because I had these really entrepreneurial type passions as well. And Sahil was an entrepreneur and I was like, remember thinking about it. And I was, grass is always greener, right?

And so with that in mind, I was kind of, I kind of made the decision or had this thought process of like, I don't think I'm gonna get everything out of one job, right? And so I started viewing my career as multiple blocks. Now, I have my job, that's my main thing, and I enjoy that.

But there's certain itches it doesn't scratch, right? And so what I started then doing was like, okay, how can I get there, right? So I bought a piece of property and I was, started building a couple of units on it.

And that really helps me with this entrepreneurial side, right? And that's not something that I need to be at, eight hours a day, right? Like it's, somebody explained it like a popsicle stick going down a gutter, right?

It's like, you see it moves really quickly for like a little bit and then it just stops and like the water's flowing over it for a while and then it moves, so I could add that in, right? And then I'm like, okay, what else do I kind of wanna do? You know, this professor thing, right?

I've always thought about teaching, like, again, let me put myself out there. Let me see it, let me, so I went and taught accounting for lawyers for a semester. I hated it, but I liked the whole, I thought it was like building your skills, right?

Like getting up in front of 70 students and like teaching them, you know, or in like lecturing for two hours, you know, one day a week, it just adds to your, like your, you know, quib of arrows, right? And so, and it does kind of fulfill, again, another itch, right? And so, I kind of started, I think, that's how I think of my career now.

It's like, I'm not just like the coin fund, you know, in-house, but I'm also like the USC professor and I'm also doing a little bit of real estate and like all of those things combined are my career. It's not just one thing. And by the way, that's me.

There are folks who are different, yet very deep and very, very good at what they do, right? I'm probably not as deep expert, you know, crypto attorney as others are, but that's what works for me, right? So I think part of it is like a soul searching effort of like kind of figuring out who you are.

The other is like, as you start doing this, I think we get so like stuck and like, oh man, it's like hard to do, like hard to like put another hour here or do that. And like, I'm seeing that now, by the way, I'm like, I understand the luxury of time more and more as I have a kid and the family at home and things like that. But you also realize like, hey, you don't need too much time.

Like, hey, I need a couple hours on the weekend to like, you know, go take the boat out, right? Or like, you know, go sailing. And that really like makes me feel like I'm in a whole different dimension, right?

And really rejuvenates me. And, you know, or like one of the things I love about flying and you guys will get this like as attorneys is like, you're, I feel like there's always like 10,000 things going on in your mind of like, and like your clients. And then you're thinking about this deal and that and whatever.

When you are flying an airplane, you are flying the airplane.

[Pankaj Raval] (50:33 - 50:34)
It's like what you are doing.

[Dilveer Vahali] (50:35 - 51:45)
Yeah, you better be, right? Like your mind is nowhere else. I'm like, you're kind of in this tunnel.

And I remember like a few of those flights, like you come back, you land and you, and it's almost like you're coming out, you're exhausted and you're coming out, but you're like, wow, that was almost meditative, right? Because you're like, I'm not thinking about anything else, right? Besides like what's in front of me, where I'm going, where I am, you know, the airplane, things like that.

And so, yeah, I feel like I've just been able to like, like I'm very much about, and I guess like tying back to like the sick concepts, like there's this concept in Sikhism called Chardikala, which means that you will live in ever-rising optimism. And it's one of those concepts that I really, I really like, right? And I do try and live it, right?

Because at the end of the day, I think like you shouldn't be taking joy from everything you do. Now, obviously I'm not perfect at it. Very few people are, but I really try and say like, hey, whatever I do, I'm gonna like enjoy, right?

Now I can't say that at like 3 a.m. when I was in the conference room of Wachtell or Kirkland or whatever else. And I haven't always been like that, but I try, right? Love that.

[Sahil Chaudry] (51:45 - 51:49)
Devi, do you have any advice for crypto curious attorneys?

[Dilveer Vahali] (51:50 - 52:39)
Yes, I would start trying to, so there's a couple of good conferences you can attend. One called the Fordham Blockchain Association to start kind of getting into that whole like legal atmosphere. I would start reading some of these SEC opinion letters.

And then there's just so much, there's a lot of noise on Twitter and things like that as well, but there's so many resources available to kind of start understanding the whole like concept behind it. And I think the biggest piece of it, those are a little bit more technical, but the biggest piece of advice is just don't be afraid. Like honestly, start dipping your toe in it.

I think that you'll find that it's easier, friendlier than you might think. And I think that's the biggest thing is like folks are always afraid of the unknown. And so.

Yeah.

[Pankaj Raval] (52:40 - 53:13)
Yeah. That's great. Yeah, and I think one last question is you seem to have navigated transitions very well in your career.

At least looking back, I'm sure, like you said, not always maybe in the midst of it, but what advice do you have to lawyers who are thinking about a transition, who are thinking about maybe jumping from one field to another, trying to take that leap and maybe even leaving high paying jobs? Sometimes the hardest part is the golden handcuffs. So how did you think about that and make those decisions?

[Dilveer Vahali] (53:13 - 53:19)
So I know you probably can answer this question very well. Yeah, both of you.

[Pankaj Raval] (53:19 - 53:21)
I'd love to hear both of you guys' insights on this.

[Dilveer Vahali] (53:23 - 53:55)
I feel, well, not like a little bit of a cop out because you're still going from like a salary job to a salary job. I haven't taken that step yet of just being an entrepreneur, which I think would be tougher. But I think it's this whole judge of like happiness too.

So like sitting, I guess, like going from like the Kirkland to the next thing. There was some study somebody was telling me about of like when you're making over X amount of money, the happiness is like, I think it actually goes down or yeah, it's kind of flat, right?

[Pankaj Raval] (53:56 - 53:57)
Plateaus.

[Dilveer Vahali] (53:57 - 56:06)
And so I think you kind of figure out what you need to live, right? What you need to maintain your lifestyle. Like, and then after that, I know that we always, it's great to have these safety nets, but if it's really bogging you down, if it's really affecting your everyday, then it's kind of like, what's the point, right?

And so I think that's one thought process. I think trying to be your own investor, trying to create some stuff on the side for me has been very helpful. Like the real estate stuff, kind of doing a little bit on the side has been a great source of kind of security.

And so that's one thing. And it's like, look, I know I'm not gonna be the Kirkland partner and like, you know, have that kind of cashflow, but I'm trying to, you know, there's this, not to, again, I guess we whacked a lot, very philosophical in this one, but like, have you guys heard this? It's called like the parable of the Mexican fisherman.

I love this little story. I think so. But yeah, please tell us.

Just like a short version of it, right? So Wall Street guy goes to this Mexican fishing village. He sees this fisherman go out to sea every morning, catch a couple of fish and come back and spend the evening kind of selling the fish.

And then, you know, having a nice dinner, having a couple of drinks with his friends, going to sleep and doing it all again the next day. And the Wall Street guy kind of sits down and is like crunching the numbers. He's like, wow, this guy catches fish every day.

They're nice, you know, fresh fish, this and that. You know, if you stayed out another couple hours, he could, you know, makes X amount of cash. So he approaches the Mexican fisherman and he says, you know, hey, look, I've done the numbers.

If you stay out three more hours, right, skip dinner, like you can make X amount more money. So they're like, oh, really? Then what can I do?

He's like, well, then you can buy another boat. You can hire another guy. Then you can, you know, they can be doing the same thing.

You can double your incomes. Really? Then what happens?

Then you get a whole fleet, right? Then you create a corporation and he goes, okay. And then he goes, then you go to New York and then you become a public company and you become this huge CEO and you have a ton of money and you can do whatever you want with your time.

And he goes, okay. And then what? And he's like, then you can, you know, you can even retire to a village like this and spend your time fishing in the day and spending, you know, and drinking in the evening with your friends.

He's like, what the hell, man? That's what I do.

[Pankaj Raval] (56:08 - 56:09)
Right? Yeah.

[Dilveer Vahali] (56:09 - 56:38)
Right? He's like, that's exactly what I do right now. And so why the hell do I need to go through that whole cycle?

And so, so I think about that sometimes, but look, I mean, I'm, I don't mean to be hypocritical. Like, you know, we all enjoy, you know, a certain lifestyle and that's difficult, you know, in LA. And so I, you know, I just try and manage and balance that.

And hopefully one day, you know, for me, it's been kind of more the side stuff and trying to figure out where I can kind of putt. Yeah.

[Pankaj Raval] (56:39 - 57:47)
Yeah. Yeah, no, that's so great. Yeah.

I love that. I love that parable. I love that story.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So yeah, no, I mean, this has been fantastic.

I know we talked about going 30 to 45 minutes, we've been an hour and I think it's been so, it's flown by honestly. And you've shared so many, you know, incredible, valuable pieces of advice for I think all the listeners and even us. I've learned a lot through this.

This is why I also enjoy having these conversations. And Sahil, thank you for like, you know, having DV on the podcast because, you know, it's great to have these conversations and it's funny, you know, even as friends, sometimes we don't go this deep. You know, in our normal conversation.

So it's an opportunity to do that and really learn a little bit more about your background. So it's been a real pleasure. So thank you so much for joining us today.

Absolutely. And thanks for having me. This is great.

I appreciated it. Well, thank you guys again. Thanks for listening.

This is Letters of Intent. We drop new podcasts every Wednesday and we're gonna have many more interesting episodes. If you wanna find us, we're on Spotify and I believe Transistor and Apple Podcasts.

So wherever you listen to podcasts, you should be able to find us there. And until next time, thank you for joining.