Letters of Intent

Pankaj Raval (00:00)
All right, everyone. Welcome back to Letters of Intent. My name is Pankaj Ravel, founder of Carbon Law Group and your host today on Letters of Intent. Our co-host today is in India and he will be joining us again next week. he is there for an IPO of his father-in-law's company. So that's going to be our topic for next week. But today we are really excited to be joined by fascinating gentleman who I've gotten the chance to know just over the last few months. His name is

Jeff Baldessari. Jeff is here because we're exploring the minds of leaders and innovators who have not only achieved success, but also learned how to replicate it. Jeff is the CEO of the Competitive Edge Group, which we'll learn more about. Jeff brings years of CEO experience. He has passed the CPA exam, served on several boards, and even practiced law with a national firm that he's probably going to discuss and has some great stories to share with us. He's led turnarounds.

built scalable processes and helped companies boost sales and operations through strategies that actually stick. Today we're talking about the often hidden roadblocks that keep CEOs from scaling their businesses and the proven processes that Jeff uses to break through them. also gonna dig into leadership, mindset, and a few questions that.

Maybe you've never heard him answer before and I'm excited to kind of hear all these fun stories that we had a chat about over lunch. Jeff, welcome to the show.

Jeff Baldassari (01:19)
Thank you, Pankaj. This will be a continuation of our lunch, I guess. You may hear a couple of these stories for the second time, but we really enjoyed our conversation over lunch a few weeks ago, and this will be fun. You'll find out if we tell the same story the same way twice, or if we a twist with a new ending. I don't know. We'll find out.

Pankaj Raval (01:22)
Yes.

I love it, please.

No, this would be great. Yeah. And

It'll be the first time for lot of our listeners. So that's great. Please feel free to add additional details, flourishes that I think. yeah, they're fascinating stories. maybe we can get into it. a common background as lawyers, but you are much more than a lawyer, I must say. You understand businesses. You're also one of the few lawyers that have gone, well, not few, but one of the lawyers and helped build companies.

So maybe you can take us back a little bit to the beginning of your career as a lawyer and how that positioned you to become experienced and great business person and maybe walk us through some of those insights you gained in your law firm days.

Jeff Baldassari (02:15)
Yeah, thanks, Pankaj. I think the big thing for me practicing law, I a Baker Hosteller in their Cleveland office back in the early 90s at the beginning of my career. I think working in teams was a real eye-opening experience. You don't realize it when you're going through it, but the person to your right, the person to your left is counting on you to get the job done, whatever that role may be. And at Baker, know, often the matters I worked on, there were...

anywhere from three or four attorneys up to 30 or 40 attorneys. There were a lot of attorneys involved and everyone had to pull their own weight. And it was exciting too. I mean, we had some interesting clients obviously, being a larger firm and some challenging legal issues, but it was more than non-legal issues that made it interesting and fun versus churning out documents and drafting. I was litigation side, although I did go to court once in my legal career. I was a witness. We liquidated a brokerage firm.

Pankaj Raval (02:45)
⁓

Jeff Baldassari (03:05)
that had six different Ponzi schemes. And I had to go to testify, essentially, you know, after the forensic accountant spoke,

or testified, to attest to how did the bad guy, if you will, steal the money, where to go, and, was the trail, if you will, and then how the statute applied to that under cross exam. And that was fun. It my one and only time in court. So that's good enough for me. I could go the rest of my life not going into court.

Pankaj Raval (03:12)
or testified to attest to did the bad guy, you will, steal the money, where to go, trail, you will, and then how the statute applies to that. And that was It my one and only time in court.

That's good enough for me. can go rest of my life not going to court. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

It is, it know, unnecessarily stressful experience, you know, even for lawyers, you know, going to court. So imagine for, you know, laypeople just without the experience. That's fascinating. I remember, you know, we talked during our lunch about, you know, these Ponzi schemes that, you know, I'd seen some recently in the news and you're saying, oh yeah, this is not anything new. You know, this is, this has been

Jeff Baldassari (03:37)
Yeah. Right. And I'm a lay person now. So yeah, there's one less lawyer in the world. Yes.

Pankaj Raval (03:55)
going you in different I would love to hear your thought, on these Ponzi schemes and why do we continue to see a prevalence of Ponzi schemes?

Jeff Baldassari (04:05)
Well, it's interesting because I asked, I wasn't a county major as you shared at the beginning of the intro. I was an accounting major and know, passed the CPA, but I didn't want to be an auditor when I grew up. So I went to law I was only five years out of college. And when I was assigned to this matter, I was just first started at Baker Hustler a month before this. And I never heard of a forensic accountant. I know they're common today. This is 1990.

Pankaj Raval (04:25)
Right.

Right.

Jeff Baldassari (04:27)
And

I was like, what is a forensic account? What do they do? And I learned name was Howard. I talked to Howard and learned what he did. And I said, listen to him. To your question, I asked a very similar question. I mean, you're going to get caught. Like, what's the end game? mean, I'm thinking.

is I'm listening to what he does and how he went about it following the money. I mean, we've heard that phrase, you know, follow the money. That's what financial and forensic account does is put the pieces of the puzzle back together. But what I found in these cases, went, well, how do these people, like how they end up here? And what they said was, you know, what Howard said, I mean, which really made a lot of sense is they steal five, I'm just using this as an example, they steal $5 nobody notices. They take 10, nobody notices. They take 20, nobody notices.

Pankaj Raval (04:52)
Yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (05:13)
But here's the problem, they start getting themselves so deep into it, there's no way out. And eventually they're going to get caught. It would open my eyes, I was only 27 years old when this case started. Yet, you know, new to the world. And what I realized was, if you're counting on the government to protect you from the bad guys, if you will, from the people these Ponzi schemes, you're relying on something. The government's not designed to do that. They're designed for compliance.

Pankaj Raval (05:17)
⁓ and eventually they're gonna get caught.

Yeah, you know.

Right. ⁓

Jeff Baldassari (05:40)
Do these guys comply with the law?

And the government's position is if brokerage firms comply with certain regulations, the ability to steal money is very difficult, which is true, but it's not perfect. And so oftentimes, you know, the government shows up to put toe tags on.

Pankaj Raval (05:48)
Right

Jeff Baldassari (05:58)
and they're just counting the bodies they aren't there before the horses leave the barn. They're there afterwards and then they go back. Well, the compliance was the bad guys know this. They know what boxes to check, what reports to file, what's to be said in each file, each report and that keeps the regulators off their back.

But what brings the Ponzi schemes down every time, this is nothing new, it's been going on for 100 years, is there's been a change in the market or a change in their business model.

Pankaj Raval (06:16)
What brings these games down every time, there's nothing new, they ran for 100 years, is there's been a change in the market, or a change in their business model,

Jeff Baldassari (06:24)
where more people want their money out than the money that was being put in. And so that happened with the case I was on. There was one particular investor wanted, I think, three or $4 million back. He didn't have three or $4 million of cash laying around. That's how his whole house of cards came crumbling down. Something similar happened to Bernie Madoff, my old firm, Baker House Lord, did that liquidation,

Pankaj Raval (06:25)
where more people want their money out, than the money that they put in. So that happened with the case I was on, there was one particular investor, who had $3 or $4 million back, he didn't have $3 $4 million of cash running around, that's how his whole house of came crumbling Something similar happened to Bernie Madoff, my old friend, they could not sort of reach the debt.

Jeff Baldassari (06:45)
represented the trustee in that liquidation.

Pankaj Raval (06:48)
⁓

Jeff Baldassari (06:47)
same thing. Bernie Madoff's situation was, the market changed. was the great recession of 2006, 2008, to 2014. I think in 2009 is when his house of cards came falling down. Same reason. People wanted their money out. The market was

going to hell. They wanted to their money out of it. They were going to take a much more conservative position in cash or whatever their choices were. He couldn't pay back all the people who wanted to cash out. And that's what brought him down. So, you know,

That was the big lesson I learned is don't count on the government to catch the bad guys. You've to your own due diligence because the government they're just not designed to do that.

Pankaj Raval (07:24)
no, so true I mean even I feel like maybe it's an existential question overall and like law but like, you know, I feel the same way the law, you know, the law addresses things

generally after they happen, right? Like I did human rights law early on. I wanted to become a human rights lawyer and I got, it was so disheartening because you see like, my gosh, like, yes, these bad actors are being prosecuted, but it's 10 years after the genocide, 10 years after something happened, you know, and that's a obviously extreme case, but we're seeing this, around the world, unfortunately right now. But, you know, that's something that's the hardest part is you're a lawyer, you're in the government, but this is, like you said,

has gone to hell and now you're coming in and trying to see what happens.

Jeff Baldassari (08:03)
I've never analyzed this and I'm sure somebody has, but a lot of our laws are reactionary. Not all of them, but a lot of them. They react to something that occurred, like you said. Some event occurred, we have to cover that, we didn't address it before. I there's some things we can anticipate when we create regulations and create laws, but not everything. And again, when something bad does happen, they come in to change the laws and change the regulations, but...

Pankaj Raval (08:08)
Right.

All right. ⁓

Jeff Baldassari (08:28)
there's going to be victims, there's going to be roadkill in that process. And it's sad because these are people's lives. This isn't an economic exercise, who's right, who's wrong. Somebody's life is ruined in these cases where their whole life savings are gone, they're 70 years old. They're not going to get a job over being a greeter at Walmart at this point.

Pankaj Raval (08:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's something to be said, you know, I think a longer conversation about the importance of institutions and laws today, because, you know, we're seeing a lot of the guardrails being removed even more. So what is that? You know, it opens up for bad actors, you know, even more than we've seen in the past. And now we're technologies, you know, just seeing what AI can do. It's a little scary, you know, but, but I think that's just all the more importance of people need to be aware, you know, have the right, you know, implement their own security, be, really vigilant and.

you know, lock your car and you know, do you lock your computer like do whatever you can to have strong passwords because it's wild what people can do now with technology too. so moving in law to business, I'd love to know how you because you know, the mind of a lawyer I would say is arguably a bit different than the mind of a business person. So how did you navigate that transition? What was it like?

Jeff Baldassari (09:22)
Yeah, it really is scary.

Pankaj Raval (09:38)
What were some of the challenges that you as you moved from business?

Jeff Baldassari (09:42)
The one challenge that I think most lawyers face, transitioning from law to business, those that make that leap, I didn't have this issue. I wasn't wired that way. But if you think about it, in most cases, not all, in law, you're playing defense. You're protecting your client from something happening, something bad happening. So it's a defensive mindset.

Whereas in business, you have to be defensive and offensive. You have to go on the offensive, go after business. What could happen? What is possible? You need to take risks. You need to take chances. You have to make decisions. that are, know, that things may not work out the way you expect it to. You may lose money on this deal because it just didn't come to fruition as you expected your strategic planning indicated.

Pankaj Raval (10:03)
Right.

Jeff Baldassari (10:23)
you should make million dollars on this and only made 400,000 or 300,000. It didn't pan out the way you expected. So that first thing the you have to clear. Now that wasn't an issue for me. I've always been a bit of a risk taker and I love, I'm comfortable going after things and also doing things that don't come with an instruction manual. I've always...

Pankaj Raval (10:35)
been a bit of a risk taker and going after things.

Yes.

Jeff Baldassari (10:43)
In my career, I've done some things that I've been forced to because the situations I've been in where I've had to go a different path because I went the path of everyone else. I'd be too late. I get the same returns as everybody else. And I was in a situation where those returns weren't big enough. So we got to do something a little outside the box or beyond the norm. The second thing with the law, this is where I did, struggled, but the adjustment took me a couple of years. And that is, was you're a lawyer, you you think about it, all your colleagues in law, they all went to law school.

Pankaj Raval (10:48)
Yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (11:11)
They all have an undergrad degree. They all have a law degree. They've all passed an exam. In my case, I wasn't very smart. I took two disciplines. I had to take two tests to prove it. But the point is, you're all smart. I said I wasn't that smart. had prove it. But we're saying all those hours back of study. But the point is, your colleagues are at the same level, relatively the same level, same experiences. Now, when you go into business, you have people with high school degrees.

Pankaj Raval (11:19)
Or you're very smart. ⁓

Jeff Baldassari (11:40)
You have people with college degrees, graduate degrees, no degree, or a certificate education, may be a formal graduation. They come from different walks of life, and a lot of economic backgrounds, and it changes their perspective. So when you speak, have to always people, when I'm with them, grooming and helping mentor people, is put yourself in the shoes of your audience, okay?

Pankaj Raval (12:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (12:05)
So when you're speaking

to factory workers in operations, they don't want to hear about finance or marketing. They want enough of the hours They're going to be working. They're going to get some overtime out of this deal. Do we care if we get this account? What's in it for me? You know, that is uniform or universal with all areas. But when you're talking to the salespeople, they don't want to hear about operations. They don't want to hear about finance and so on. So you have to speak the language that resonates with the audience that you're speaking to. But that took me...

Pankaj Raval (12:10)
Right.

You have to speak the language that resonates with the audience that you're But that took

a while to get used to, not so much the audience thing, but the educational background. So for example, in law, you're told what to do, you're expected to understand what you're supposed to do, go do it. Whereas in business, you need to repeat yourself a few times. It doesn't, what's easy for you may not be easy for your Only because they're not as familiar with it.

Jeff Baldassari (12:30)
a while to get used to, not so much the audience thing, but the educational background. So for example, in law, you're told what to do, you're expected to understand what you're supposed to do, go do it. Whereas in business, you need to repeat yourself a few times. It doesn't, what's easy for you may not be easy for your audience, only because they're not as familiar with it. Or

you're pushing your organization, your teams to stretch outside their comfort zone. So they do need some repetition, they need some handholding.

Pankaj Raval (12:52)
Right, right.

Jeff Baldassari (13:00)
They need knowing that you have their back and to explain it so they thoroughly understand it and don't feel bad if they don't understand it right away. And so it took me a while to get to that. I used to say, I don't want to have to babysit everybody, but it's not babysitting. So

now I think the pendulum switched the other way where I tell people four, five, six times. I'm like, okay, I got it after two. I got it, you know, but you want to make sure because you all have to be on the same page, just like in law.

Pankaj Raval (13:21)
Okay, I got it.

So I can walk.

Jeff Baldassari (13:27)
But it's a little bit more challenging in business just because educational backgrounds of the people involved.

Pankaj Raval (13:32)
I love that. You know, it's so true. mean, I think you make two great points. I love fact that you talk about like, you know, law, I do find it's very defensive. You you play that one side very well. You focus on defense and you're kind of a defensive specialist when it becomes to being a lawyer. But then, in business, you have to play both sides. You know, you have to play both sides of the ball for a sports analogy, right? It's got to understand offense and defense. You know, got to get back when something happens and, and,

you know, I'm a big basketball fan. like, you understanding that in that context makes a lot of sense. and then yeah, repeating yourself, like, you know, I founded a law firm. So I also kind of where the entrepreneur had as well and the importance of, you know, I found early on in my career, like just making sure people understand you. I even have like a handoff checklist that I've used in the past of like, okay, when I tell someone to do something, I asked them, okay, what do you understand the task to be?

Right? Because it's so important that people understand what you're saying because we we say is crystal clear. Right?

Jeff Baldassari (14:28)
Oh, everything I say is Chris LeClerc. Come out! Ha

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Pankaj Raval (14:34)
It makes 100 % sense

to me, right? Yeah, I mean, of course, yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (14:37)
I always

tell people we both can't be wrong, so I must be right.

Pankaj Raval (14:42)
Yeah, so I think, you know, just the importance of communication repeating yourself in different ways for the different audiences, I think is such valuable advice when leading a company because I mean, I think you're right. I communication really is I think is of the fundamental elements of a successful organization. From my perspective, too, is that if you cannot communicate well with your team, with your investors, with stakeholders, then

You're gonna have a very hard time building a business because no one's gonna be on the same page as you and you're gonna be very frustrated probably.

Jeff Baldassari (15:12)
great point there early on when you said, when you asked your teams to echo back what you just said. Because if they can echo it back, then you're going to have a better feel to understand what I'm talking about. think that's a great tool to use.

Pankaj Raval (15:12)
Cough

Yeah, absolutely. Have you, know, your career, I would love to hear like if there is a mentor or person that you felt helped shape your career or how did you even look at like was there anyone particular you can think of early on in your career that helped really guide you and what kind of lessons do they give you?

Jeff Baldassari (15:42)
yes, had, we all have mentors, I multiple mentors over my career. I still, you know, I still have mentored and you could be mentored up. I people that, you know, you may be senior to them in an organization, but everyone can be a student, everyone could be a teacher, you know. So, but the one thing I do remember distinctly was my mentor at Baker Hostel, or Dick Hollington, corner office partner. I mean, this guy was big time.

Pankaj Raval (15:55)
Right.

Wow

Jeff Baldassari (16:07)
And when he walked in a room, you knew it. So he had a presence about him. was Harvard grad, law school. That's not what caught your attention about him. He was very, and he was businessman as well. His family had a bank, as John, his little side hustle, you know, had a bank. Everybody's got one of those, right? You know, the community bank. But no, but Dick, when Dick walked into

a room, you knew it. He was bigger than life. And he exuded confidence. He exuded personality.

Pankaj Raval (16:32)
Yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (16:35)
And that's not for everybody. for

me, it really, you know, at a firm that I was at that had a lot of Ivy League attorneys, a lot of incredibly talented professionals and a lot of incredibly talented clients, you had to have confidence and you had to project that confidence because you you're, you know, you're representing, you know, a client in some way, shape or form.

Pankaj Raval (16:55)
Yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (16:57)
They want to

make sure that people that are representing them are just as smart, just as confident as they are. And that you got this, you know what you're doing. I think with Dick, whether it was social settings, business, you knew Dick when Dick was in the room. And that was a really good, and he wasn't the only one, but he was the one who really stood out, you know, for me to learn, just learn that, you know, it's not something out of a book, it's just the way you carry yourself. And not to be...

Pankaj Raval (17:02)
Yeah. ⁓

think we're good for the social settings.

Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (17:24)
And Dick was not

one to brag about himself. He didn't need to. His actions spoke for themselves. And think I learned that a lot from a lot of people. And probably you may have heard this before. I I have as well, in that the most successful people in this world don't have to brag. They're confident in who they are and their actions speak for themselves. I think, you that's, learn a lot from that. But yes, I mean, I did have, you know, attorneys at Baker and even when I was at Taylor, learning from my engineers.

Pankaj Raval (17:27)
Yeah.

Right, yeah.

And I think that's the good luck in that. But yes, I I did get a little.

Jeff Baldassari (17:50)
learning from the people within the organization, learning from the factory workers because they knew what I know. These guys were craftsmen. We made high end office furniture in my first CEO role. And I learned a lot from the guys and gals on the line. They had such pride in what they did and the nuances that they did effort and commitment and care they put into it, whether it was a chair or a desk, the upholstery, the finish, whatever it may be, the woodworking.

Pankaj Raval (17:59)
and my first CEO role. And I learned a lot from the guys and gals on the line. They had such pride in what they did and the nuances that they did

Yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (18:17)
You learned a lot from these folks and you could feel and sense their passion. And I think there's something to be said about that. And I think, you you've got to be attuned to what's around you and that helps round you out, make you a better person to take pride in your work. You know, no matter what you do,

can you carry yourself in that manner and take the same level of pride as other people around you for what their craft is? You should have that same amount of pride in what you do,

Pankaj Raval (18:37)
same level of pride with other people around you for what they're doing. You should have a similar kind of with you.

it makes me wonder, you know, like in terms of, mean, there's a lot of debate about whether, these kind some of these characteristics can be learned or, they're kind of born with it. I think nowadays there's more evidence that, probably they can be learned, but I'm wondering, you know, what, you know, let's say someone aspires to be a confident person. Maybe they feel like they're not very confident now in their, in their career.

Maybe they're experiencing doubt. Do you have any insight or suggestion on how they might navigate that if they if they want to be like this person like Dick, like, you know, walk into a room and project confidence, but maybe they just feel like they don't have that right now.

Jeff Baldassari (19:15)
the best advice I give, think one of the most toxic things any of us can do, even if you are confident, don't compare yourself to others.

Pankaj Raval (19:22)
I love it.

Jeff Baldassari (19:23)
That's what ruins a lot of people's confidence. And

I don't care if it's socially, personally, professionally, when you start comparing yourself to others, you're done. Because there's no upside to that whatsoever. Because no matter who you compare to, there's somebody better. Pick your category, pick your metric. Somebody made more money, helped more people, saved more job. Pick your category, it doesn't matter. There's always somebody out there.

Pankaj Raval (19:50)
I agree.

Jeff Baldassari (19:51)
So that's what I, if somebody is suffering or is little shaky on their own self-confidence, I would just be confident in what you've done, the work you put in and you know, do the best you can,

be true to who you are and don't go beyond that. And I think if you avoid the comparison, you know, game, you can avoid kicking, you know, knocking yourself down many notches.

Pankaj Raval (20:08)
You can avoid.

Yeah. ⁓

Jeff Baldassari (20:12)
And you start building yourself up saying, man, I put a lot of work in. I did that.

You know, I'm proud of that because that's a lot of sweat, blood and tears to make that happen, whatever it is. And that's how you build confidence. If you've given it your all and it's don't worry about outcomes. It's about effort because the outcomes will take care of themselves. Nobody bats a thousand. Nobody wins every time. And so when you do have success.

Pankaj Raval (20:21)
Yeah. Right. Right.

Jeff Baldassari (20:41)
Revel in the small victories too. That's another thing I think people fail at, all of us do. We don't celebrate the little things. We only wait for the big celebrations and you should obviously celebrate the big stuff. But you should, the journey, mean life's a journey, not a destination. know, celebrate that journey. The steps along the way. Even if you don't make it to your ultimate goal, you made it farther than you were before you started the journey. So there's something to be said about that and it should build your own self-confidence. Like, wow, I'm a better person today or.

Pankaj Raval (20:48)
you should obviously celebrate quick stops. It's a journey, life's a journey. Celebrate that journey, comes a long way. Even if you don't make it to your ultimate goal.

Yeah.

I'm a better person today.

Jeff Baldassari (21:09)
stronger, smarter,

Pankaj Raval (21:09)
Stronger, smarter.

Jeff Baldassari (21:10)
whatever label you want to put on it than I was a week ago, two weeks ago.

Pankaj Raval (21:14)
Yeah, no, I love that. love that. I mean, I think you're, you're so right. think, you know, there's that saying, this quote, I don't know who said it, but like, you know, comparison is it comparison is the thief of joy, right? I think it really is. And, and, you know, I even tell my daughter sometimes, and, know, I think about it to myself too, is like the importance of like learning to run your own race, right? You cannot, you cannot try to compete against those other others around you. and that's really hard, you know, because, you know, we live in a society that often, you know, rewards people who come in first.

But in life, it's different, right? Life is not always this linear race where whoever's at the end gets a number one, two or three gold medal, right? It's about your experiences, what makes a fulfilled life, right? And who do you help and who can you touch, right? You do a great job of giving back and helping people. And I think that's really admirable because sometimes people always, a lot of people ask like, what's in it for me? But I think it's this idea of like, if you can help others.

And oftentimes you'll be taken care of, You know, that's my philosophy. The more you can do for others, the more often you'll get what you want in life. It may not be immediately, but I think in the long run. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So moving to a little bit too, like competitive edge. And then I would do want to talk a little bit about like, you know, deal making, because, you you have this experience of deal making, you we are law firm, you know, it's kind of, we talk about deal making and risk taking a lot in our, in our firm and who we help as entrepreneurs, but

Jeff Baldassari (22:19)
It'll be your turn someday. It's going to come back. I agree with you 100%.

Pankaj Raval (22:38)
I'd to hear a little bit more about, you worked at this company, you're turnaround, and then you went to competitive edge. So tell us a little bit more about that transition. What led you to now the current company you're at?

Jeff Baldassari (22:52)
Yeah, so with the Competitive Edge Group, I started the firm a little over a year ago in the spring, early summer of 2024. And I did it because I've had two roles as a CEO 21 years between the two firms. And I was looking and seeking to find another CEO role, but I started running into the purple squirrel syndrome. I had two opportunities. And then for both cases, I didn't have an engineering degree. So I wasn't the right fit. I can't keep playing this game.

Pankaj Raval (23:15)
I think you're playing my

game. I can't play her an engineer, right? don't need to be an engineer. An engineer doesn't think like I do.

Jeff Baldassari (23:19)
I can hire an engineer. don't need to be an engineer. An engineer doesn't think like I do.

You want to grow this business? I know how to do that. And I can bring the people around me to build up the organization, seek the contribution, get the employee engagement, and make it occur. But I just thought, you know what? I've learned a lot in all these years. Why not work on training?

with the clients I'd like to work with. instead of being a CEO when you have 20 things to worry about, if I go into an engagement, it's like three things to worry about.

Pankaj Raval (23:52)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Baldassari (23:52)
or five things. It's a far less number of things and it's a lot of fun. And to your point earlier, and that is I'm building an organization up. I just don't go in to solve a problem. I teach them a proven process that will not only solve that problem and transcend it, but it's going to transcend the problem so it transforms the organization, transforms the culture. So then it's a new organization. People feel, to your point earlier again about like being empowered.

Pankaj Raval (24:16)
So then it's a new organization. People feel...

Jeff Baldassari (24:21)
I can do this, we can do this, we believe in ourselves. You oftentimes when I go into some client situations, there's a lot of self-doubt in the air. You can feel it. Like, god, you know, we're not doing well, we haven't been doing well in a long time, we're never gonna get out of this, this is our destination, or destiny, I should say. And then, no, no, stop that. You know, and here's how we're going to work our way through this. And I think also, when you give, when you start to value people's perspective,

Pankaj Raval (24:24)
Often times when I go into some client situations, there's not a self doubt in here. can feel it.

And I think also when you give.

Jeff Baldassari (24:48)
you know when you ask that simple question what do you think you're implicitly stating I think you have something of value to contribute I'd like to hear from you

Pankaj Raval (24:49)
Right.

Jeff Baldassari (24:55)
I like to hear what your thoughts are, what you see. I'm not expecting you to collect the dots, but I would like to hear what you're seeing from where you sit, work, stand in the organization. And so the competitive edge for me was I just started, I had a side hustle when I was interviewing and it was like, well, this is fun. Why don't I just make this a full-time job? And that's where I incorporated the business. And then Leslie joined me. Leslie Morales was with

me at US Rubber. We got the band back together again and she's got 34 years of experience.

Pankaj Raval (25:18)
We got the band together again and she's got 34 years of experience

Jeff Baldassari (25:23)
enterprise rent-a-car, 22 years as an executive. And our skills really complement each other because she's really good at things that I'm not as good at and I'm good at things that she's not as good at. And I require adult supervision and she provides that for both

Pankaj Raval (25:23)
with the band and she's 22 years of productive. And our skills really complement each other because she's really good at things that I'm not good and I'm good at things that she's not good at. And I recorded the opposite of the vision and she provides that.

Jeff Baldassari (25:37)
of us. But no, but it's a lot of fun working with the people you enjoy working with like Leslie and I and then the people we serve. we're making a difference beyond just, wow, your sales went up three million dollars.

Pankaj Raval (25:44)
Yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (25:49)
I want that organization to be transformed in that it's now a new place. People believe in each other, having fun, and we're growing, and we're working together to make it a better place for the future.

Pankaj Raval (26:01)
Yeah, I love that. When you go into these companies, is there one question, I'm sure there's probably several, but is there one question or one kind of data point you look for first to see like how they're doing?

Jeff Baldassari (26:11)
No, I don't have one. what the hell's going on in this place? No, I don't have a single question. So I typically ask, the question I do ask is, I go down two paths. One is, what are your aspirations and your frustrations? I want to hear, and not from just one person. I I typically start with the CEO, founder, but I want to hear from the organization because...

Pankaj Raval (26:12)
Okay.

Jeff Baldassari (26:35)
You know, there may be, and I also want to find out the third question is, you believe we can get to whatever or solve fill in the blank? Because I got to figure out what their belief system is. And, but no, just, it's like, you know, it's just no different than law. You got to ask a lot of probing questions and you're going to, you're kind of, know, it's a fresh perspective of questions. So what ends up happening is,

Pankaj Raval (26:39)
Hmm interesting ⁓

Yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (26:56)
you know, we start digging in after I kind of get, okay, we're going to focus on this area that's frustrating us, whatever it may be. Then Leslie and I start asking a fresh perspective question. because we don't have any preconceived notions, we're not from the industry, we're not carrying any baggage. So we may ask, and not we, we definitely do ask questions they've never been asked before. Now,

Pankaj Raval (26:57)
Yeah, that's right. We're going to focus on...

Right.

So.

brain. ⁓

Jeff Baldassari (27:18)
Maybe eight times out ten, we'll ask some really good questions. Two times out of ten are stupid questions, but here

are those, okay. But the fresh perspective ones, what's good about those is we get the clients and the people we're working with to think differently and go, wow, I love hearing this. I never looked at it that way. I never thought about it that way. And that's what opens up the possibility. So what ends up happening is fresh perspective, we have a ton of experience. We say, hey, so here's what we did in a situation like this. We share our experiences.

Pankaj Raval (27:35)
Mm.

Jeff Baldassari (27:47)
And then we blend and we co-create the solution by blending in their institutional knowledge, because we don't have that, they do, blend in the institutional knowledge with our fresh perspective, our experience, and now we've got something to work with. And we're off to the races. So that's the approach we take.

Pankaj Raval (27:47)
Then we blend and we co-create solutions by blending in their institutional knowledge. If we don't have that, then we do.

And how do you install that new belief system? Because I feel like you've got to change. mean, I guess, does this change come from the ground up or the top down?

Jeff Baldassari (28:13)
Ground up. I am anti top down. No, I'm in the anti top down camp. you're calling it what? Well, it's not even a buy in. They're going to get here's how it happens through the process we use as appreciative inquiry and appreciative inquiry is to bring a diversity of people to the table to contribute their perspective to solve problems. And you want people from the front lines. You want leadership front lines, adjacent departments, and then perhaps not always perhaps outside stakeholders, supply chain partners.

Pankaj Raval (28:15)
Okay, okay. So you got to get buy-in from the employees, from the people.

Jeff Baldassari (28:41)
customers and what you're looking to do is to gain perspective and Contribution because when people start contributing they now emotionally own the outcome Now they've been heard the biggest hurdle that there is is leadership because leadership wants to talk and When you start talking as leaders you intimidate the lower level frontline people And you may not invite the right frontline people or enough of the frontline people to the table and you're not going to get their perspective

Pankaj Raval (28:52)
Hmm.

Jeff Baldassari (29:10)
And someone on the factory floor, someone in the warehouse, someone out in the sales field, they see things you don't see in your ivory tower sitting in the corner office. They see things, they see, feel and hear things that can't be found on a spreadsheet. Okay.

Pankaj Raval (29:10)
Yeah, you can hear that yeah.

Jeff Baldassari (29:25)
so by inviting a variety of people to the table, you're giving them a chance to contribute to the solution. They will emotionally own the outcome. They're not being told what to do. There's no engagement when they know, Pankaj, you do this, Jeff, you do that.

Bob, you do this over here and Sally, you do that over there. You're being told what to do. And if you don't do it, how many times are you gonna whip the donkey? Okay? And also, it's not my idea if I'm one of those four people and the boss told us what to do. But when you're helping to solve the problem and be a part of it, now you own it. And you're gonna make the extra effort that nothing falls between the cracks. And I remember the great story I heard in Cleveland.

Pankaj Raval (29:43)
Right.

Right, right.

Make the extra.

Jeff Baldassari (30:04)
The gentleman who pioneered appreciative inquiries, professor at Case Western Reserve University, his name is David Cooper Rider, and he was brought in to help out a consumer goods firm. And they had a packaging issue. I don't remember the details, but he facilitated the meeting because this is kind of like playing golf. I can tell you, Pankaj, this is what you got to do. These five things, okay? And that's like reading how to play golf in a book. You don't have a club in your hand.

Pankaj Raval (30:04)
Good job.

in a super edit.

Right. Right.

Jeff Baldassari (30:29)
So you need me who's been there to show you how to really, here's the cadence, here's what it really feels like to make this happen. Same thing, that's what I brought David Cooper writer in. And one of the people at the table

was the receptionist. And this company, was a receptionist who said something. And it was her idea that saved this company $500,000 a year. Now, not because she connected the dots, she just said, hey, this is what I'm hearing on the phone.

Pankaj Raval (30:45)
And it was her idea that saved this company.

Wow, the receptionist, wow.

Jeff Baldassari (30:57)
People are speaking to me, they're writing to me. I'm seeing it. Because as a CEO, no one ever tells you the whole story. That's just the way life is, okay? And so when you bring in people from other levels of the organization, they're gonna hear, see, and feel things that you're not. And also, that doesn't show up on a spreadsheet or a financial statement. You know, these are emotional issues sometimes. And so they took advantage of this and they had an incredible outcome. Now that's an extreme example, but it's not an uncommon example because...

Pankaj Raval (31:03)
Yeah.

Wow.

Jeff Baldassari (31:25)
I know in my own experiences time and time again, I had people from throughout the organization contribute to the solution and it's things I would have never thought of on my own. Okay, wow, I got this

big degree, all this schooling, all these years in the C-suite, who cares? I'm not on factory floor. I'm not on a sales field hearing from the customers, okay? I may have an idea, but that's not gonna get us very far. So that's the idea.

Pankaj Raval (31:46)
They have an idea, but that's not gonna get us there. So that's the idea

Jeff Baldassari (31:52)
is inviting people

Pankaj Raval (31:52)
is important to come.

Jeff Baldassari (31:54)
to the table, allowing them or giving them the opportunity to participate. And that's what the difference is. There's ownership, engagement, and things start. That's how the culture gets changed.

Pankaj Raval (31:57)
That's difference with ownership, engagement, and state of the That's how the culture gets changed.

Absolutely. I love that. So true. Yeah. I I think you're absolutely right. And it's not easy, but I think keeping that in mind, the ownership and engagement, the appreciative inquiries makes so much sense. I to read that. have to look into book that he wrote about this, or is that what it's called? No, there's a book that we're trying to bring to the internet. It's Right 293.

Jeff Baldassari (32:18)
No, there's a bunch of books on appreciative inquiry. It's been around since 1993.

So it's pretty plus years old, 32 years old. But there's organizations for appreciative inquiry that you can find out a lot. Or I have a live event. I speak on it quite often.

Pankaj Raval (32:31)
Okay, okay.

All right. We'd love to, yeah, we have to get those, that information. put that in the show notes. Uh, because yeah, I mean, it almost sounds like, today I always, often here I work with coaches, you know, I have business coach that even says, um, you know, lead with curiosity, you know, and I try to do that with my personal relationships and professional relationships too, because oftentimes again, we're talking about the beginning about like, Hey, you know, what I'm saying should be crystal clear. It makes perfect sense to me. Right. But oftentimes it doesn't make sense to other people around you and no one can read your mind.

And I think that's so important. And I think it's really a disservice to believe that someone can read your mind or should know what you're thinking about anything, unless it's really clear that you've laid it out. I think leading with curiosity, that appreciative inquiry is so in building a business.

Jeff Baldassari (33:14)
Yeah, it's something that's really counterintuitive.

Like you said, on paper this makes total sense, but in reality, you know, it doesn't. It's just not the way the world works sometimes.

Pankaj Raval (33:24)
Last question, is there something you've changed your mind about in the last five years?

Jeff Baldassari (33:28)
No, not for the... I think things have evolved. So if you want to call it changing, yes, I keep learning more in the sense that...

As life goes on, mean the world's dynamic, okay? And what worked five years ago does not necessarily work as well today. Everything has a shelf life. And it may not have expired yet, but it's not as effective as it was four or five years ago. think the biggest thing that just keeps repeating itself, but the nuances to figure out the combination to make it work concept of people. Because life is easy until people get involved. So, or everything in life is easy until people get involved.

Pankaj Raval (34:00)
Yes.

Jeff Baldassari (34:01)
And so the question becomes with every organization, how do I overcome the people component? So the approach is when you say change your mind, I may change my approach with people. So when I go into engagements, there's sometimes I'll go out there and I will show up in jeans and a polo shirt like this or a t-shirt and I have my steel-toed shoes on and I'll go out in the warehouse, I'll go out in the factory and just start talking to people. They don't know who I am.

Pankaj Raval (34:08)
Hmm.

Jeff Baldassari (34:29)
And I just tell them I'm a helper. I'm here to help. I'm helping somebody. And that's what I am doing. When you get them to put their guard down and just listen and quit telling them, hey, according to this theory, here's what we should do. I want to hear what they have to say. And was funny, my first client, I mean, I'm not exaggerating. For the first, I think the first month.

I must have discovered three or four new problems just by doing that. I go out in the factory, I just start talking to people and they start telling me something like, wait, wait, say that again. And they would tell me more. And I'd look into it like, boy, here's something else we got to fix because if we don't fix this, know, what we just fixed is going to fall apart because, you know, they're all connected. There's a labyrinth of issues in any kind of business and nothing a complete silo. So, but I think that's it. I think it's more of the evolution. But I've changed my mind, not necessarily, but my approach has evolved.

Pankaj Raval (34:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Approaches evolved.

Approaches evolved. Absolutely. Absolutely. More iterative. Iterative than, know, necessarily changed. Yeah. Which makes perfect sense. Yeah, you know, because I think, yeah, the world is changing so fast. It's so dynamic. Your business is changing. You know, technology. There's so much. But you're right. But I think the one constant is people, right? And I think it's always been the challenge, I think, for lot of businesses is how do you deal with people? And now we have technology.

Jeff Baldassari (35:16)
Over.

Pankaj Raval (35:38)
in some ways trying to replace people, right? There's a lot of talk about AI replacing people, but does it, So it is interesting, that conversation about how people and technology will work together, what will be replaced, and I think that's something probably we could talk about for hours in the future, maybe our next episode. Jeff, can you tell people little bit more about where they can find you? Any resources, any online?

Jeff Baldassari (35:53)
No.

Pankaj Raval (36:02)
where they should go to learn more about what you do.

Jeff Baldassari (36:04)
Yeah, sure, thanks. And I think the easiest place is on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. Jeff Baldassari, I'm not hiding. You can find me on LinkedIn very easily. Our website, thecompetitiveedgegroup.com. No spaces or dots. Thecompetitiveedgegroup.com.

And that's two great easy places find us. And I always welcome a conversation. So if I can give somebody some direction, some help, if it leads to an engagement, If it doesn't, that's OK. Because maybe they don't need a full engagement. Just need a little bit of direction, and I'm happy to give it to them. And they could run with it. And it makes you feel good when you see people do better, whether it's a full engagement or just an idea. Because they could take that idea and make it tenfold better later.

Pankaj Raval (36:31)
Yeah.

Yeah,

absolutely. I really appreciate that and I appreciate your time and and yeah, just your willingness to give and be so helpful. You know, I was I was very touched and appreciative when you offered to introduce me or you ripped out your book of diary of like, you know, a journal of all the people you can introduce me to. you know, I was I was I was so amazed because, you know, that's you know, I think that's so nice. And you know, you don't always see that with a lot of people who have had success.

But I think it's what we need in this world with people wanting to help each other and lift each other up. And I think you're a perfect example of that. This has been really great. always enjoy talking to you. got more stories, more insights about leadership. And I feel like I always learn something every time I talk to you. So thank you again for sharing your knowledge, sharing your insights and experiences with us. know our listeners, I think, will find this very as they...

manage growth and manage the change that's coming in the economy. But I think, you know, if you guys are looking for help, Jeff is a great person to talk to to help navigate and grow your business.

Jeff Baldassari (37:42)
Thank you, Pankaj. I really appreciate it. It lot of fun and I've always enjoyed our conversations. It's good and I look forward to the next one, whether it's a podcast like this or just over lunch. So that works well for me. All right. Bye-bye.

Pankaj Raval (37:51)
Absolutely, me too. Thank you so much for time. Thanks. All right.