Letters of Intent

Pankaj Raval (00:01.91)
Welcome back everyone to Letters of Intent, the podcast for risk takers and deal makers. I'm Pankaj Ravel, founder of Carbon Law Group.

London Lewis (00:11.467)
Thank you.

Sahil (00:21.327)
And I'm Sahil, corporate attorney here at Carbon. Today's guest is someone I've known for years, a friend, a creative powerhouse, and one of the sharpest legal minds in entertainment.

Pankaj Raval (00:31.758)
She's a veteran legal executive with time at Netflix and MRC in helping shape film and television deals across the world. Sorry, is that right? Across the world? I want to make sure I'm globally. Okay, global. Okay, perfect. Okay, so I'm gonna try that again. So she's a veteran legal executive with time at Netflix and MRC helping shape film and television deals across the world. She's also a writer, a producer, and someone who refuses to stay in one lane.

Sahil (00:42.968)
It's just a, go ahead. Yeah.

London Lewis (00:43.145)
Yeah, yeah, they're globally, they're globally distributed. So yeah.

Sahil (01:01.069)
Whether she's drafting contracts or producing films, she brings the same passion and purpose to her work and executes with intention.

Pankaj Raval (01:08.984)
So today we're unpacking the journey, the pivots, the risks, and what it means to lead with both legal acumen and creative vision.

Sahil (01:16.663)
London, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. I'm so excited to learn more about your story.

London Lewis (01:24.619)
I'm so excited to be here. Can you guys see me? Because it froze for a second, so I just want to make sure.

Sahil (01:30.881)
Yes, we can see you, we can hear you. And I wanted to start off, London, with you grew up in the Windsor Hills View Park neighborhood. I wanted to find out what was it like growing up there? What were your early creative influences? Was there anyone in entertainment or law when you were growing up that inspired you?

Pankaj Raval (01:32.354)
We can see you. Yes.

London Lewis (01:50.709)
You know, that's so interesting you mentioned that because it's so funny. think hindsight is 20, 20 now that like looking back, like, my gosh, there's so many creatives that have come from this neighborhood like Issa Rae and Regina King. And it's, I don't think we like really realized, know, like, there's people like when people were talking about View Park, Windsor Hills, it wasn't really like on the map in that way.

Thanks, out to, major shout out to Israe for like making our little neighborhood kind of like on the map. But I think, know, essentially it was like my creative influences were like, I don't know, like Fresh Prince of L.A. and what else? Martin Lawrence, you know what I mean? So these were people that weren't like from L.A. and so they were just like really like funny.

Pankaj Raval (02:37.742)
Yeah, yeah.

London Lewis (02:44.255)
people and then of course like when I saw Clueless I was like, this feels like close at least tangentially to LA and so, you know, I feel like those were kind of like my influences early on and now that I'm looking back though I'm like, you know what, it's actually my family members that were really funny. Like a lot of the things that I write or gravitate towards are, you know, things that feel familiar. So like,

just like my upbringing, like if I see someone that reminds me of my grandmother or my mom, or you know, I recently watched Forever on Netflix, and I don't know if you guys have saw that series, but I guess Mara Brockett-Kill would definitely be someone that, you know, kind of influenced my upbringing in the sense that her show Girlfriends, that I was just like, wow, I wanna be like these women. I wanna be like Joan and very powerful.

And have like, you know, it's really hard to find like a lot of, you know, black females on screen that you feel like you relate to growing up, you know what I mean? So I think at the time it was just like, okay, seeing something like that was probably, I guess, the stuff that I would feel like influences me. But forever that show, I feel like will influence the next generation because it...

it specifically captures my neighborhood and the feeling of growing up in LA while being young and black.

Pankaj Raval (04:19.384)
Mm-hmm.

Sahil (04:20.557)
So did you, what drew you, what came first, law or entertainment? Like what came first, the chicken or the egg?

London Lewis (04:27.967)
Definitely entertainment. If you told me I was going to be a lawyer in entertainment, that was not going to be the case. I watched Entourage and that was like my favorite show. I would like rewatch that over and over and I was like, I want to be the next Ari, but I want to be the female version, you know? And a lot of my friends growing up in LA, a lot of them wanted to be actors or work in the industry on a producer or director level. And so was like, they're going to need like an agent.

Sahil (04:30.23)
Okay.

Pankaj Raval (04:38.837)
yes.

Pankaj Raval (04:44.686)
Amazing. Yeah.

London Lewis (04:57.963)
in terms of like, you know, representing them. I didn't even really know that entertainment law was kind of like a thing. I thought of lawyers as just like the people that go to court, et cetera. But it wasn't until I majored in rhetoric that I realized, oh, there's transactional attorneys. And actually, Ari Emanuel went to law school. maybe I should go to law school. You know what I mean? And actually, so that I can...

Pankaj Raval (04:58.562)
right

Pankaj Raval (05:20.598)
Yeah.

London Lewis (05:27.837)
at least maybe not be an entertainment lawyer, but at least be kind of armed with the lingo and the protections of, you know, knowing the law. And that way I could just be better armed. Cause as a woman, you're just always trying to think of, okay, what's gonna, you know, give you the next edge. And I felt like, okay, if I go to law school, I will probably still become an agent. And CAA was like the dream at the time. My third year of law school, I interned at CAA.

Pankaj Raval (05:44.333)
Mm-hmm.

London Lewis (05:57.139)
And I was just like thinking, you know, I even got offered an assistant job there in their motion, their motion picture film finance team. And I thought it was kind of like the lane I was going to go. But of course, graduating with student law debt, I can't afford that like 27K salary. So I was just like, guys, I can't, I can't live off of this. But, and I don't, I don't even know if the personality fit.

Pankaj Raval (06:17.506)
Yeah. Yeah. I know.

London Lewis (06:25.525)
fits my personality, you know, being an agent. Like I'm not that intense. I'm usually to this day, I can't avoid smiling. And so my family was always like, are you sure you want to be a lawyer? Because you still are going to have to be like, you know, you're a little too accommodating to be a lawyer. And I was just like, no, I'll just, I'm, I'm going to make my lane. And that's how I kind of discovered like, you could do entertainment law because a lot of the agents were doing deals with the lawyers on the other end. And so that's how I kind of.

Sahil (06:34.817)
you

Pankaj Raval (06:38.094)
You're right, yeah.

Pankaj Raval (06:53.496)
Yeah, that's amazing.

Sahil (06:54.479)
Well, I want to touch on that because you found your way. I mean, you didn't just become an entertainment lawyer. You became an entertainment lawyer at the highest level at Netflix and now at MRC. And so I would love to hear about that journey. mean, so at some point you're deciding, okay, it's not going to make sense for me to go the agent route, but I want to go the entertainment law route. And now to get your foot in the door to play, let's say Netflix.

London Lewis (06:55.445)
coming.

London Lewis (07:07.163)
I don't

London Lewis (07:19.145)
Right.

Sahil (07:24.547)
very difficult, very competitive, especially, I mean, the same goes for MRC. So how did you navigate your career?

London Lewis (07:25.417)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

London Lewis (07:34.987)
You know, I think I was just very intentional and it's funny because it wasn't until like 2017 that I was like, I want to work for Netflix specifically. I was in New York, living in New York and I was working in house for an advertising company. And I discovered that, you know, I think I've reached my ceiling here at this advertising working in house. And also I want to move back to LA, but I don't want to just move to another.

you know, in-house position at an advertising agency or anything like that, I want to pursue this dream of working in film. And that was because at the time in 2017 was kind of like, I was realizing, you know, I'm in my thirties. was like, okay, I'm getting to this point where if I don't really like chase what I really want to do, which is basically produce some of the projects that I've been writing on the side.

then I'm never gonna do it and I'm only getting older, not younger. And so it's just kind of like a little bit of a fearless thing that came with me of like, well, I have nothing to lose. And I had to be very intentional about, okay, okay, my skill set is being a lawyer. So of course I'm gonna apply for entertainment, legal jobs, but film doesn't necessarily translate to advertising, right? And so I had to kind of like sell myself and the skill set that I learned.

and in-house and seven rounds of interviews later, I finally got the job. I think it was them taking a risk on me and at the time they were a company that was kind of like, we're going to kind of basically home raise our lawyers. So as long as you have a legal skill set and you're very passionate, like passion is definitely one of the highest values.

and believing in transparency, et cetera, and a willingness to kind of like do anything. Like there's no job too small or too big. Then, you know, I think they, they, you know, luckily took a chance on me and I was employee number eight on that team. Um, that grew to 66 people by the time I left. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, it was amazing. I, and I was, yeah. Yeah.

Sahil (09:46.359)
Wow.

Pankaj Raval (09:46.851)
Well...

Pankaj Raval (09:53.462)
Wow, wow, that is crazy.

Sahil (09:54.243)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (10:01.454)
That's amazing. Yeah, I would love to, I want to hear more about this, you know, your time at Netflix and also MRC. But I was also like intrigued by, know, your story about CAA becoming an agent, because actually I resonate with that because I moved out to LA and did entertainment law, worked at an entertainment, small entertainment firm. And, and I was thinking about actually becoming an agent as well. was like, oh, this sounds cool. I think it also inspired by Entourage. You know, I watched Entourage growing up and I loved it, you know, and I was like, yeah, that'd be fun. could, you know, and I love music, so I want to become a music agent.

But then I was talking to people in doing it. They're like, no, no, stay as a lawyer. I think you're better. You'll be happier. So I don't know what was it about like being an agent that ended up turning you off or did you, yeah, was there something about it that you're like, you know what, or the student debt? Cause I know, yeah, I didn't also want to start at the bottom, but was there something about it that you felt like, you know what, you know, maybe being a lawyer just makes more sense.

London Lewis (10:31.883)
Ooh.

London Lewis (10:54.771)
Yeah, just, was something about, it wasn't even starting at the bottom. Like I'm happy to make my dues or pay my dues because I realized after law school, and I don't know if this is you guys' experience, but I feel like law school really taught me more so to just be a judge than a lawyer because I'm like evaluating case law and learning rules. And so I needed to learn how to apply them, right? I needed to like really understand the deal making structure.

Sahil (11:13.455)
you

London Lewis (11:22.603)
So I definitely recognize that I need to start at the bottom in some capacity. It's just more of the financial aspect. was just like, I don't literally know how I'm gonna survive in LA off of this amount. So I just don't think it was kind of something that was made for me. But also, it wasn't just that. It was like, I could technically move back in with my parents and then grind it out that way. And some of my friends did do that, right?

Pankaj Raval (11:35.509)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (11:47.064)
it. Yeah.

London Lewis (11:51.925)
For me, was just kind of like, I don't know, maybe I was misguided at the time because I feel like a lot of people are making that, the people that did make that sacrifice, they're like, they're like partners at the agencies now and it's exciting. But I did sense that a piece of this, like a piece of my personality probably wasn't gonna be the personality that was gonna thrive at the agency, right? Like I am someone that just wants to.

Sahil (11:59.521)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (12:02.072)
Yeah.

London Lewis (12:19.637)
collaborate and really figure out like how to get the deal done. And I felt like at the time, at least I don't know if this has changed, but like at the time I felt like, kind of go in being a shark and you're kind of just like end all be all. And I don't know if that was necessarily who I was at the time. Like I just didn't have enough, you know, I don't know. In that sense, I don't think my personality fit that.

Sahil (12:41.248)
But London.

Pankaj Raval (12:48.238)
Hmm.

Sahil (12:49.091)
But London, you actually did make the leap into the creative world, which is remarkable. I mean, you built, an amazing legal career at Netflix, MRC, and then you found your way into producing and screenwriting. And so I did want to ask you, what did you learn about producing? You produced films like Thick House, Love Lock, The Shady Brunch. Can you tell us about that experience?

London Lewis (12:55.486)
Yes.

London Lewis (13:14.581)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I think that kind of relates to willing to do any and everything and have like no job be too big or too small, right? Like, so at the time, a friend of mine was starting a production company and she had this partnership with the shade room who had this overall deal with Facebook watch and her being someone that was like, you know, starting at the bottom, you know, she's young, she's, she's, she's like,

you know, I just want to work with people that I like and that, you know, who have a passion for this. She basically took a chance on me because I said, hey, I want to produce. I recognize that I'm an entertainment lawyer, but I like know the deal structures from working at Netflix. And so while I was at Netflix, I was able to produce these shows and use vacation days. I was very honest and transparent with my boss. And, you know, luckily the culture is.

you know, as long as you're kind of like transparent, you can kind of do other things and use your vacation days accordingly, right? And so it only each season of the show only required eight days off at a time. So I was able to use eight days of vacation and produce a show. And that was eight, that was eight episodes. And so it's really just like, you know, how much do you want to kind of like sacrifice? Like instead of going on a trip, I was like using my vacation days to actually do work.

Sahil (14:32.132)
Wow.

Pankaj Raval (14:32.418)
Amazing.

London Lewis (14:43.787)
Yeah, so that's very, I just feel like sometimes you just gotta like do what needs to be done to get it done, right? And like use your relationships. If your friends are in the industry, if they need help, it's kind of like, I was even willing to volunteer, but luckily she decided to pay me because she was like, wait, I actually see your value. But you know, it's not always gonna be the case. And I feel like you have to just kind of like, you know, make your way in some way.

Pankaj Raval (14:44.394)
That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

Sahil (14:44.665)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (15:02.67)
Yeah.

Sahil (15:03.407)
Hehehe

Pankaj Raval (15:06.55)
Yeah, amazing.

Sahil (15:07.118)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (15:14.638)
Absolutely. mean, to me, that's like ultimate hustle. And I love that. And I love that about like LA, like people I meet in LA, it's like, it's hustling, right? Like you're looking for opportunities all the time. And even, you know, you and I were chatting last night about that quote about like, sometimes opportunities whisper, right? And I think it's so true that, you know, it sounds like, you know, London, you found this opportunity through your building your relationships and network, and you were able to kind of try this new world of producing, which you always wanted to do.

Sahil (15:28.013)
Yeah.

Yes.

Pankaj Raval (15:44.366)
So I love the fact that you chased it, you figured out a way, right? You had to take, use your vacation days. Some people would go to, to Hawaii. You decided to do this production. And I mean, now you have your producer credits and you can leverage that in new and fun ways. So that's amazing.

Sahil (16:02.839)
Well, on that note, tell us about 8 degrees of the F-boy. What was that about?

London Lewis (16:09.771)
Yeah, so that was literally my first, I guess, voyage into filmmaking. I essentially wrote this script after a tough breakup. And this was like, you know, in 2018, this was like a crazy breakup. then, and that's when luckily Netflix relocated me to LA. I started this whole journey. And so it was 2020, there was this,

short film competition that was kind of for anyone and everyone. They were kind of like, we're just looking for like new creative writers to join this writer's room. And it was called Create the Writer's Room. And so they were like, we're looking for like a three minute short. And, you know, I felt like, that's a very small ask. So why don't I just like self finance something like this? I have this interesting story that was literally based on the breakup.

or inspired by, wouldn't say based on because I definitely changed a lot just so that there was no issues legally, you as an entertainment lawyer, you have to do that. Exactly. And then I reached out to my network of like, you know, a lot of my friends, like I said, are actors. And so I reached out to them to kind of, you know, cast it up. We had our first like,

Pankaj Raval (17:15.374)
Protect the dames.

Sahil (17:18.713)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (17:22.786)
Yeah

London Lewis (17:36.139)
what do you call it? Table read? I guess we had our first table read at Netflix and after hours of course. And that was exciting because I was just like, okay, I'm in this amazing space where all creatives exist. And it's like, I feel like I just need to make something. And I had the support of everyone there. And so yeah, I like submitted it. I wrote the script first. Then they asked for the video version.

I made it to that round, then I made it to the third round. like top 10 finalists, sadly was not the top three because the top three I think were the ones that, you know, got to join the writer's room or at least compete to join the writer's room. But it was my first like voyage into that. And it was March, I can't, I will never forget this. was March 8th, 2020. And I will always remember like creating it and submitting it then because that was like International Women's Day right before the pandemic. So.

Sahil (18:31.373)
Wow. That's amazing. So you...

London Lewis (18:33.139)
I know, it was pretty insane. Yeah, and so that was pretty, I'm create.

Sahil (18:39.627)
You talk actually, I've heard you speak very eloquently about this black stories and women's stories. And I wanted to explore that a little bit because it feels like that's a theme as well with your podcast, More Than a Lawyer, even though it centers around the experience of being a professional and being more than that, you know, having a multi-dimensional personality. But I do notice that I feel like there is in a lot of your work,

London Lewis (18:48.565)
Mm-hmm.

London Lewis (18:56.213)
Mm-hmm.

London Lewis (19:01.727)
Right.

Sahil (19:07.913)
a theme of celebrating black stories. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of that to you?

London Lewis (19:14.451)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's just a lot about, you know, as you grow up, you realize what's authentic to you is just like who you are, who the people, you know, that raised you are and, you know, wanting to kind of like gravitate towards those types of stories that show that complexity, right? Like, I think, you know, seeing films growing up that didn't necessarily always, you know,

show people in the way that I felt like I could relate or work like my family members or anything. wasn't until like, honestly, it wasn't until I heard like, Kanye West's graduation that I was even like thinking outside the box of like, oh, he's articulate and educated as a, as you know, as someone that's like a hip hop artist. And he's talking about stuff that I can relate to. He's talking about my college experience, right? And then

Then it was, know, seeing friends like Issa Rae like come out with Insecure and seeing like Lena Waithe come out with Chicago. Like, you know, these are shows.

and who they are. And I realized the reason I was gravitating towards their stories and really wanting to like celebrate those works was because they were authentic and they were, you know, basically they were talking about stuff that they could relate to. And so I felt like, what's my authentic voice? Because it's not necessarily like my experience isn't exactly as theirs is either. And so I was just like, I want to kind of like

tell the story that I feel like relates to someone that's literally like me, you know? And I felt like the more I was being honest with myself about what I was going through or like what my experience was as being a professional trying to gravitate towards entertainment and work in that, felt like that was a lot of the stories that people could relate to and people were like, I wanna see that. And I was just like, really? That's interesting. Like it wasn't until hearing like feedback from people when I would share the stuff that I was writing and I was like,

London Lewis (21:15.199)
you know, at the end of the day, a writer can only write what they know if you really, unless you're doing a lot of research, right? And I felt like the stuff that I could actually write well was the stuff that I actually knew about. So a lot of the stuff that I gravitate towards or write is literally based on personal experience or inspired by personal experience and or, you know, my friends. I, a lot of people say like I'm a social butterfly and I...

you know, sadly, I think that's the gift and the curse. But, but so I get to like hear a lot of different people's perspectives on a lot of things. And the more I would share, the more I would hear other people's experiences. I was like, wow, we're all like relating in some different way to each other, but it's not the exact same. And it's like only you can tell your exact same story. So you might as well create that lane for that story because everybody else.

is gonna tell their story. So like, why not be honest and tell yours, you know?

Pankaj Raval (22:11.19)
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. mean, yeah, I mean, it's so it's so powerful, I think what you're saying, because, I mean, that's art, too, right? It's like it's your you're conveying your own humanity. And like, it's our shared humanity that allows us to like identify and empathize with it that creates that emotional impression. It's so yeah, it's so fascinating because, you know, I would love to know a little bit more about like going a little deeper in terms of like finding your authentic voice.

How did you go about that? What was your process of uncovering that authentic voice of yours? Because it's not easy. A lot of times there's a lot of stories, a lot of stuff, a lot of noise out there. How did you cut through all that noise to get to your authentic voice?

London Lewis (22:49.855)
Thank you.

Well, you know, I was raised an only child, even though I do have siblings. And so because of that, you have a lot of time alone. I think journaling.

Pankaj Raval (23:00.172)
Yeah. OK, so be only child. OK, I got to figure out.

Sahil (23:04.245)
Yeah.

London Lewis (23:07.283)
Yeah, I definitely feel like being an only child was kind of the gift and the curse, right? Because it's like you're alone with your own thoughts a lot. You know, for me, TV was kind of like my therapy, right? Like, you know, after homework, etc., I would come home. My guilty pleasure was being able to like watch something and it was like, okay. You know, I'm also processing my day and it's like, how would I like I would do spec scripts on like shows like a different world.

And, you know, like when I was in college, I was just like, you know, I'm not in HBCU. went to Berkeley, but I was like, I was on the Afro floor my freshman year and I was like, there's some, some similarities to a different world, but not exactly. And so I would like basically create characters off of like my friends at school. Yeah. And so I just realized like I would, you know, my friends were, you know, generous enough to like actually take me up on.

Pankaj Raval (23:57.398)
That's awesome.

London Lewis (24:05.803)
reading my scripts and like playing the characters too. And so the more I got input from them that like it was actually interesting and entertaining, the more I was like, maybe I do have a voice. And then I met one of like my, you know, very dear friends, Amber. We met in our freshman, I mean, our 1L year of law school our first day. And we, you know, we became roommates our second year of law school, but

we wrote a script together during law school as a way of of like escape because we were just like, okay, we realize like we have to know the law, but it could be very isolating, right? Like being in the library all day. And so we just had this creative outlet. Like we both came from a space of like wanting to get our voices out there. And I think also being a lawyer helps too, right? Because you're always having to have your own voice, like share your perspective.

on one side or the other and why a deal should close at this amount or not. And so just think getting more comfortable in my own skin just really helped me find my own voice. And then just getting the reception of like, yeah, when people would start agreeing with me, was like, Or if they didn't, and it's like I could back it up of why I felt like this was interesting or not, then I feel like that's what helped me.

Pankaj Raval (25:24.343)
Hehehe

London Lewis (25:31.253)
But it's still a process, right? Like I still feel like I'm still getting my, you know, gaining my own voice.

Sahil (25:31.951)
So.

Pankaj Raval (25:32.014)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (25:37.856)
Of course, of course, yeah.

Sahil (25:37.977)
So being an artist, how does it affect your deal making style? Because I imagine you're dealing with complex and high stakes deals. How does being an artist affect the way that you make deals? Right, right, yeah.

London Lewis (25:56.797)
Yeah, it's so funny you say that because I often, you know, because I'm on the studio side, but I can also always sympathize with the tele lawyers when they're like trying to make a case for their clients. And I'm just like, at the end of the day, I feel like to make a good deal, you both have to feel like you are giving up something, right? Like, they're going to make some interesting arguments. Some of them will land with me and some of them won't. It's funny, I always

Pankaj Raval (26:07.982)
Right, right.

London Lewis (26:26.031)
I tell my bosses both at MRC and at Netflix prior that like, I can understand they make this case, da da. And it's like, then they would like challenge that to me. And I was like, for whatever reason, you know, it's usually who makes the more influential, persuasive argument is the one that wins at the end of the day, right? And so I feel like, yes, although I sympathize with a lot of like the talent lawyers, you know, basically negotiation tactics and

and also like their points, sometimes it's just wrong or, you know, like just based on experience and also based on precedent. And then sometimes it's just right. And you're just like, okay, well, let me take that up the chain because I actually do agree with you. So I feel like it's fair if we do meet in the middle, you know? So it's just like a matter of just using your own like intuition and also like based on experience, you'll start to see what's industry standard and customary and what's not. And so sometimes

Sahil (27:00.686)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (27:01.346)
Yeah.

London Lewis (27:25.235)
It's funny when people try to like, you know, use certain tactics as a strategy to kind of like negotiate against you. Like when you know they're yelling or you know, using profanity, it's like, usually they have no case and they're just trying to like intimidate you. But if they're actually using logic and you know, precedent or something to where I could actually work with them, I'm willing to work, right? Because I want this to be collaborative. I want their client to actually

Pankaj Raval (27:34.338)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (27:38.882)
Yeah.

Sahil (27:38.923)
Right, right, right. So.

Yeah.

London Lewis (27:53.169)
enjoy being on set and filming this project. I don't want it to feel like it was a bloodbath. I just feel like that shouldn't be what we're in the business for. Like we're in the business to like entertain and like make amazing projects that I want their clients and our studio to feel excited about. And so it's literally cutting to it at the end of the day of like, what is it going to take to get this deal done and why? And if it's a realistic ask and our, you know, understanding like ask.

Pankaj Raval (28:13.143)
Yeah.

London Lewis (28:23.017)
then I will do my best to try to make it happen, you know?

Pankaj Raval (28:26.542)
Yeah, I'm intrigued. mean, I think we could probably talk for another two hours on this, but like, you know, being on both sides of the deals too, you know, like I think you have a really unique perspective because, you know, being on the studio side and also producing things. I was wondering, you know, is there something you've seen like a negotiating style or technique or approach that you feel like you've seen, you know, from the studio side that you feel like, you know, maybe you've applied.

that you've used on, you in New York, maybe advocating for yourself on the, on the other side or something that just really like you felt like worked well. Um, because I mean, yeah, there's so many different terms people can apply in different, different, you know, so many different styles. So do you have anything come to mind there?

London Lewis (29:04.725)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it really does come down to what's the budget, right? Like if you're negotiating a financial aspect of the deal, it literally is like what's budgeted. And what I love is that working at both Netflix and MRC is I've learned about backend and I've learned about buyouts, right? So it's not just like the fixed compensation that's going to

be the one that appeals to me. It's gonna also be like equity in the deal. I feel like that type of deal structure is something that I gravitate towards as you know, on the talent side and then also on the deal making side, I use as a way to sweeten the deal if I don't have the budget to give them the, you know, high seven figure, eight figure deals that everybody's talent thinks that they deserve.

Pankaj Raval (29:58.286)
Yeah. Could you give us an example? mean, that makes perfect sense. And you've been hearing a little bit about that, know, points on the back end, things like that. Like, could you tell us a little bit more about what that means just for listeners who are not familiar with the entertainment industry? What does that look like? What do you hear in terms of like, even like, are maybe some asks based on different budgets of films? I know it goes across the board, but if you have any insights into that, yeah.

London Lewis (30:05.161)
Mm-hmm.

London Lewis (30:20.8)
Yeah.

Yeah, I guess another name for it is like contingent compensation. It's like compensation that's contingent on it either, you know, being released and having this much, you know, box office ticket sales, or it could be, you know, a buyout because a stream, because it's on a stream or streaming service. And, you know, we don't necessarily know it's, it's all a risk, right? You don't know how something's going to perform. Like, you know, what's interesting is thinking about.

those amazing deals like Slumdog Millionaire or Get Out, which were true Indies made it like, I think Slumdog Millionaire was made with what? A million dollars or something? But a crazy box office. And so it's basically, or like Get Out I know was made at 4.5 million and like over 250 million like domestic or something, right? So it's just literally thinking about, there's a potential upswing here. If I...

Pankaj Raval (31:02.616)
Something yeah, something yeah, super small, yeah.

Sahil (31:17.603)
Wow.

London Lewis (31:21.547)
literally take less upfront compensation and ask for a point, a piece, even 1 % of that 250 million upswing would have been amazing, right? So like, it's really like, you know, betting on yourself and as talent and also as a studio, like it's showing them that, hey, you know, we're all incentivized to make an amazing piece of work because we feel like this is something that's going to really be appealing to the masses. And

Pankaj Raval (31:33.739)
Yeah, yeah.

Sahil (31:34.223)
Thank

London Lewis (31:51.711)
You know, you don't always go into it with that thinking, but you think like, if I connect to this story, there has to be someone else that connects to the story, right? And so I feel like when you decide like, hey, you can give me like maybe scale, like whatever the guild minimums are for this, whether it's a PGA, DGA, SAG, writer's guild, whatever, you can give me scale, but I want a piece of that back end. So I want a piece of the net profits, you know, because that's when you're really like,

Pankaj Raval (32:00.021)
Yeah.

London Lewis (32:22.057)
I feel like having the chance to make even more than you could make as like upfront, you know.

Pankaj Raval (32:29.166)
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I have a question about like just working with Netflix because I've actually got a funny enough, someone came to me recently trying to produce something and she just she sold one film to Netflix. I mean, it's all public. Gita is the director. Do you know the movie? I forget the name now, but yeah, so she sold something. They asked me to help them.

London Lewis (32:38.997)
Mm-hmm.

London Lewis (32:43.965)
you

Pankaj Raval (32:56.098)
you know, try to pitch to other investors to invest in their next project. But if someone's coming to Netflix, do you have any tips on how they can position themselves to be most successful with the pitch to Netflix?

London Lewis (33:09.183)
Ooh, that's a great question. feel like I get that asked a lot, just, you know, for friends that are like, everybody wants to submit to them, right? I think, you know, this day and age, everything, you know, everybody has a story, right? And, you know, everything could seem interesting. At the end of the day, I think what's successful and what's going to gravitate is if you have a clear vision of the story, right? And a clear, you know, idea of the world that it's being created in, a clear...

Pankaj Raval (33:12.827)
Yeah. Right.

London Lewis (33:38.795)
Like if you have attached talent or attached filmmaker director, I think the more pieces you can put together and show that there's an actual, you know, clear idea of what you wanna make and why, and why this is, it's really answering the question of like, why Netflix, why you, why now? It's like those three questions are usually kind of the questions they're gonna be asking, right? And...

if you can articulate those answers and actually have like clear direction in that, I think, you know, there's always a shot, right? I mean, because at the end of the day, everybody's looking for the next amazing thing. Like, I don't know about you guys, I'm on the film side, but Love Island unscripted, like that is, I'm just like, it's crazy. Addicted, and it's all the time, right? And it's like,

Pankaj Raval (34:08.398)
Mm.

Sahil (34:24.687)
I'm addicted. Yeah, I watch it with Aish every day. I like there more than 30 episodes in this season. It's incredible.

Pankaj Raval (34:26.378)
Right, yeah.

Pankaj Raval (34:33.934)
Ha

Pankaj Raval (34:37.548)
Hahaha

London Lewis (34:38.975)
I get off work and I'm like, why is that my highlight in my tree? And it's like they've found a format that works not only for us but globally, right? You have the UK version, the Australia version, you have the South Africa version. So it's like for TV shows, if you can appeal globally, I think for streamers, that's it, right? Because everybody wants something that's gonna appeal globally. Film, you know, it may not appeal globally, but for whatever reason, people will watch a non-

Pankaj Raval (34:43.058)
Ha ha ha.

Pankaj Raval (34:49.71)
Yeah.

London Lewis (35:08.117)
globally appealing film, globally more often than a series. And so I just feel like if you could find a formatted show that works across the board, that's your sweet spot. And then if you can also for a film, just have a clear direction on your story that maybe it's so focused, you know, like, I don't know, like Forever is a series, but that's globally appealing, even though it's very specifically about.

Pankaj Raval (35:12.674)
Yeah.

London Lewis (35:37.669)
LA and like Hollywood Hills. Like it feels like it's very sad, but I think people can relate to the underlying values and to the overarching themes of the story, right? I think people can relate. It's like first loves. We all relate to that. It's like, you know, different class of people dating. I think some people can relate to that. So it's just like, you know, and also it's appealing to see like attractive people on screen, right? So I think that's...

Pankaj Raval (35:40.685)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (35:50.158)
No.

Pankaj Raval (36:04.098)
Yes. As we know, Love Island.

Sahil (36:04.557)
Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, the games are ridiculous. Yeah, it's such a good example. And I think it's such a good example too of an IP that's getting built, right? You have so many episodes you can build out. And that kind of brings me to my next question is, the, people are thinking about selling their film, on one hand, you're a filmmaker, you want to sell your individual film, but...

London Lewis (36:08.297)
I think that's what Love Island really did.

Sahil (36:32.867)
What's the business model on the studio side? Is the studios basically consolidating a library and licensing it? Is that the real value here? Or are they looking to make money off of individual films?

London Lewis (36:45.897)
Hmm, that's an interesting question. feel like here's the thing. You know, if a studio is buying your film, are not buying it, but they can license it. But if they're making it, if they're co-financing or financing it, they're not gonna just want to make it so that you can own it and license it elsewhere, right? So I think they're incentivized to make it for you, like give you that certain budget.

because they know it's gonna be exclusive to them, it's gonna live on their service as a streamer or, you know, theatrically, whatever. But if they're licensing it, it could just be like, you know, sometimes studios are just like, let's just get some points on the board. So if it's like, it has like really cool attachment cast and it's like, this looks like there's gonna be a little bit of a zeitgeist.

or it's just really interesting and it was a very competitive project. And if, you know, if we're able to carve out kind of like a term for us to have it on our streaming service, why not? Right. Because, I mean, here's the thing, there's two different ways of looking at it. So like, as you guys know, we had the SAG and WGA strikes, you know, in 2023, I believe. And

So then there was kind of like a halt at content. Like that whole year, felt like a lot of stuff wasn't being made. Even at MRC, we had a lot of like stuff in development. And then when we would try to make it, was like, we have to wait till the strikes are over. But it's like, we want to get some stuff made, right? And our distributing partners, they were looking for stuff. So they were acquiring, they were doing license deals for just kind of like anything to kind of like have some new content on their service. But you know,

now that the strike is over, it's like, maybe they're more incentivized to own it because they can, if they owned a show like, let's say, Love Island, they know that, sometimes we may have different viewers or we may have the same viewers, but people will use both services. Like you say, like a Hulu and a Netflix or a Hulu Peacock, whatever. As long as we have a little piece of that sliver of that, know, zeitgeist, we're fine.

London Lewis (39:06.121)
And so we're okay with a license, whether it's a 25 year term, short term, whatever the case may be. But it just depends on kind of like what's the actual property that they're looking to either make or to license and like what's the appeal.

Sahil (39:24.623)
So, well, for anyone who's listening, you just heard an artist talk numbers. You heard an attorney talk about creative. For anyone who's listening and wants to be a part of both worlds, think London, you are a perfect example and an inspiration. Law and art, business, creative vision, this conversation is proof that you don't have to pick just one. You can build your own lane.

London Lewis (39:44.131)
okay.

Sahil (39:53.583)
For everyone who's listening, we'll drop all of London's information in the show notes. London, where can people find you?

London Lewis (40:03.391)
Well, I mean, definitely on social media. So my Instagram, legally underscore London Bridges. And then of course, LinkedIn, feel free to hit me up. I know people hit me up there. I also have a website called more than a lawyer podcast.com. That's for my podcast. You know, you can reach me either directly through there as well. And yeah, I'm just

I'm excited to like see what's being made to work with people, to be collaborative. feel like, you know, a wise woman of said, you know, work across not vertical. And it's like, you guys come and you grow together. And so that's what I'm all about. So I'm always like, you know, it sounds very trite, but like, basically let's just like collaborate and work together. I think some of the best teams like

Sahil (40:55.181)
Yes.

London Lewis (40:56.479)
the Ryan Cooglers of the world who are still working with their same team from film school. I'm like, yeah, that's what I'm about. Yeah, it is.

Pankaj Raval (41:01.258)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. No, this has been, it's been so, so amazing, you know, to have you on London.

Sahil (41:02.402)
incredible

London Lewis (41:15.913)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (41:19.662)
You shared such valuable insights and advice for our listeners. And I hope you guys reach out, stay in touch. know, hopefully we'll have you again in the future as you talk about your next big project or that next thing you're doing. If anyone's looking for more information, please drop us a comment.

London Lewis (41:39.913)
I love that.

Pankaj Raval (41:49.562)
We always appreciate the likes and the shares of this podcast. It helps us continue to produce more of this content. And let us know what else you're looking for. Let us know what other information you want to hear, whether insights you want from our guests, because we want to make this as useful as possible to our listeners. With that said, thank you again, London, so much from the bottom of our hearts. We really appreciate it. And this is Letters of Intent. Until next time, have a wonderful day and keep on deal making and risk taking.