Letters of Intent

Sahil (00:00.408)
Okay. Well, hello and welcome to a very special episode of Letters of Intent. You have here, sorry, I'm gonna start that over. Okay.

Pankaj Raval (00:11.07)
Sure.

Sahil (00:15.8)
Hello carbon community. Welcome to a very special episode of Letters of Intent. Lawyering is stressful. Deadlines, strategy, and people depending on you. So what happens when our managing partner goes off grid to sit in silence for five days? Today, I'm asking our managing partner, Pankaj Rawal, about his experience at Insight LA's meditation retreat and what it taught him, not just about law, but about being human. Pankaj, welcome back.

Pankaj Raval (00:45.364)
Thank you, thank you. It's good to be back, but I also missed the silence a little bit.

Sahil (00:52.182)
Well, tell us about, sitting in silence for five days can be very intimidating. What made you to decide to go on this meditation retreat and why this one?

Pankaj Raval (01:04.434)
Yeah, so I want to try to remain present and, you know, this is one of the things I took away from the retreat is actually really just trying to be much more intentional and aware of everything I do. And I think that's one of the benefits of going on these retreats. I, my experience with going on retreats actually started many years ago, actually how we overlap and how we know each other through IndieCore. Through IndieCore, I'm not sure if it happened when you were

there, but it would have people come through once in a while who would teach meditation to us. And I remember in India, there was like this, these two guys, I think they're American who were working on like a letter writing campaign to build like friendship between Pakistan and India. And these two guys would sit with us and lead us on these different meditations. And that was the first time I really, I was exposed to kind of real meditation in India.

Sahil (01:36.045)
Yes.

Pankaj Raval (01:59.035)
And then I've always been fascinated by it. Then part of my also journey in India was I spent time in Dharmasala or McLeod Ganj where the Dalai Lama lives. it's a refuge for Tibetans who have fled China due to persecution, Tibetan Buddhists. So there I was tutoring a Tibetan monk in English and he would actually teach me meditation, sit with me in meditation, help give me some insights on the practice.

And I was always just so fascinated by it and the stories that he would share about being a Buddhist and how he looks at the world. I I come back to the US, enter law school, didn't really meditate probably the most, probably the time where I probably should have been meditating the most, but I didn't and I needed the most. But then I realized right before I went to, right before I sat for the bar exam. So I graduated law school and this is where

The long story is all about like, it's serendipitous how I kind of came to the Buddhist practice of meditation is that between the graduation of law school and bar study, there was like a 10 day gap. And I said, I need to do something. I need to do something to center myself. I'm a ball of stress, you know, just got done with finals and now I have this biggest exam of my life that will determine whether I can even, you know, even the last three years mattered or not, you know, if I don't, if I don't pass. So I, serendipitously,

Sahil (03:20.119)
Yeah, yeah.

Pankaj Raval (03:24.368)
found online a retreat in San Diego. At that time I was in Tucson. It was a five day silent meditation retreat called Waking Up. And it was based on the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh. Thich Nhat Hanh had set up a monastery in San Diego called Deer Park. And I signed up for it and I went there and then for five days we meditated, talked with the monks. They gave us insights, shared the practice of the Dharma, shared the teachings of the Buddha.

And I was like, it came out of that. and I kid you not, no, not hyperbole in any way. Someone said, you look five years younger when I got back. I was like, okay, well there's something here, you know? And I felt, I felt like I've never had that feeling before after your first meditation retreat where you are so present. Like I remember like specifically going to the gym and playing basketball and I would feel

Sahil (04:07.32)
This is real.

Pankaj Raval (04:21.974)
every bounce of the ball, it almost felt like slow motion. And I felt like, my God, this is incredible. All the anxiety, all the worries kind of really melted away because I was fully engrossed in the present moment. was fully present. And I think there's many ways to accomplish this, but I think there's something unique and something to be said about the 2,500 years that this Buddhist meditation practice has been around that really

I think really qualifies it as a great way to engage with the present moment and to know your mind.

Sahil (04:56.814)
Well, let's get into the structure of this retreat a little bit. What was the retreat structure like? Was there anything that surprised you?

Pankaj Raval (05:05.274)
Yeah, so this retreat was in Big Bear. So there's a Big Bear retreat center at the top of Big Bear and it's absolutely beautiful. was kind of the inspiration I believe was when there's another meditation center in Spirit Rock in Northern California and the people who built the Big Bear retreat centers said, we want something in Southern California that's like this. it's through their generosity, they built this beautiful center that, you know, it's

It's simple. Meditation is not supposed to be occulent. You're not going to be going to the Ritz Carlton in Big Bear. This is like kind of they're like cabins that have rooms in there, but nice and well kept. I went there, this retreat was essentially based on the Vipassana tradition. There's many different lineages of Buddhism. There's Mayana, Theravada. There's, I think,

thousands of different types of ways you can practice Buddhism. This is based on the Vipassana tradition. Vipassana generally is silent. It's a little bit more regimented. Vipassana is, we started at, this was Thursday night where I went, and we started with essentially dropping into noble silence that evening after dinner. Everyone had dinner together, talking, getting to know each other, understand where people are coming from, and then...

we attend our first sit right after dinner and that's where they do an opening ceremony and say, okay, now we're going to be entering into noble silence. Noble silence is essentially no more talking for the rest of the retreat. The teachers can talk to you about the Dharma practices, but you really should not be talking. And yeah, it was intense. So we started with a 45-minute sit and then going outside to do walking practice. And essentially for next five days, that's what it was. It was sitting,

walking, sitting, walking, a break for meal, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, Dermatoc, sitting, walking, sitting, walking, and then sitting. And you do that from 6.15 in the morning or 6.00 in the morning to 9.30 at night.

Sahil (07:12.012)
Wow, takes a lot of discipline. Did you, you talked about how in the past with your meditation experiences, you came out of it feeling more in the present moment. You could feel the bounce of a ball when you're playing basketball. Can you describe for people who have never meditated before?

What happens to you as you go into this noble silence? How much time does it take for you to start to feel shifts in your energy or your perception of reality? And did you experience the same thing where the present moment felt richer?

Pankaj Raval (07:49.404)
I absolutely felt that the present moment felt much richer. You're just so much more in tuned with what's going on and that is really the practice. I think a lot of people who have not meditated feel it's a little bit, it can be a little bit overwhelming or it could be a little bit intimidating. Sitting there on a cushion or walking for whatever, 18, 15 hours a day could be challenging.

But I would tell everyone that if you're thinking about meditation, you can start small. And really, there is no right or wrong way to do it. Even the most experienced meditators experience the same things that the beginning meditators do, and it's just probably a little less, which is the whole act of meditation is coming back. It is coming back to yourself, coming back to your senses. And that's why the actually name of the retreat was called Coming Back to Our Senses, because it's really coming back to your body, coming back to...

what is happening in your mind and just paying attention and it's letting go. It's understanding, these are thoughts that are happening. These are thoughts that may be of worry, of anxiety, of planning. A lot of times in our Western culture, we plan a lot, but it's just recognizing, okay, what are the thoughts arising? How do they serve me? And recognizing that all these thoughts are not us because everything

I love the Joseph Goldstein quote that says, everything that has the power to arise also has the power to fall away. And I think that's a great insight when it comes to your mind.

Sahil (09:22.711)
Right.

Sahil (09:27.146)
So can you tell us a little bit about that, what you just said, everything that has the power to arise also has the power to fall. What's your relation, what did you feel like you learned about your relationship with permanence or impermanence? Was that part of the insight?

Pankaj Raval (09:44.759)
Absolutely, absolutely. think it's related to that. It's that that saying that quote, invokes, think this idea of impermanence too in life. And I think it's a great insight to carry with us as we encounter ups and downs in life, that it all is impermanent. Everything is impermanent in life. Life is dynamic. Life is constantly changing. And that has many different levels of understanding and practice.

when we think about impermanence. If we could think about impermanence in the context of relationships. I oftentimes think about it in the context of my parents or my loved ones, my kids even. Impermanence, they're only gonna be this old once. I wanna make sure I take advantage and enjoy every moment with them as much as I can. I'll tell you, the reality is that when they came home, they were crying, both of them, for half an hour before bed and not wanting to go to bed.

That was difficult. That was difficult. But it was sitting in that difficulty. It was like, I took a moment because of the training saying, I'm feeling frustration right now. I'm feeling upset. But I definitely sense that as a much less reactive than I would have been six days ago or seven days ago. I was much less saying, hey, raising my voice or saying, hey, you guys got to listen or what are you crying about? It was really just trying to be more tender and open, like open my heart to them and say, hey,

you know, it sounds like you're going through something difficult right now. It sounds like you're struggling with this and just holding them and being close to them rather than the maybe emotional knee-jerk reaction to say, stop that. What are you crying about? And saying, you know, it's time to go to sleep. But it's like understanding what's happening in that present moment for them.

Sahil (11:34.638)
Did anything from your legal practice emerge in your mind over the course of the last five days? Was there anything sort of a legal issue or something in your experience as a lawyer that came up that you felt some resolution for, some insight into?

Pankaj Raval (11:53.59)
Yeah, you know, it's a great question. think there's a few things that have come up and it's actually, the practice has helped me a lot in dealing with difficult clients in difficult situations, in stressful situations, especially where there's situations where, let's say a client was unhappy or clients are in dispute and I'm here trying to solve, help them resolve this dispute and then all of sudden one...

person I had this issue come up with in person and turns it towards me and said, I did something wrong because I was, you know, I was trying to help them. And that can make you very defensive, right? You're here trying to act out of the goodness of your heart, trying to help people, but then for them to accuse you of something and then take actions that would even like create, you know, make threats against you, that you feel like we're not, not founded well founded, but they're still

Sahil (12:25.358)
Hmm.

Pankaj Raval (12:48.92)
threatening you, your livelihood, that's very difficult, right? That's a very difficult situation. That is suffering. That is stress, which is, think, modern term for kind of suffering that the Buddha talks about. And I said, okay, well, this happened a while back and I could live with this person. I can live in a way that holds resentment towards this person. Or what if I transformed that into now sending loving kindness and metta towards this person?

Essentially, what if I now open my heart and soften my heart to this person said, hey, this person acted in a way that I did not like that, you know, that made me feel uncomfortable. But it was also a great teaching moment for me saying where, what, what in what he did caused these emotions to arise and how do I process that in a way, but also not hold anger, resentment, ill will towards this person. Because in the teachings,

There's something called the five hindrances. The five hindrances are I think sloth and torpor, doubt, ill will, I think like the central craving of central desire. And there's one more. In that whole process, realized that, actually, you know what, let me just make sure I look up this. Yeah, so I can...

Sahil (14:12.204)
Yeah, let's look it up. Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (14:15.997)
I just had it here.

Pankaj Raval (14:22.359)
we can edit this out.

Sahil (14:24.79)
Yeah, interesting, okay, the five hindrances.

Pankaj Raval (14:27.241)
sell me

Yeah, let me show you. have it here.

Sahil (14:32.034)
Okay, cool.

Pankaj Raval (14:34.487)
Oops.

Pankaj Raval (14:42.605)
Here we go. I just posted about it on my Instagram recently. okay. yeah, in Buddhism, there's these five mental constructs that come up that actually prevent us, the Buddha says, from experiencing awareness from rising to a higher level of consciousness. And that is sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and doubt.

Sahil (14:45.678)
perfect, perfect.

Pankaj Raval (15:12.373)
know, we could talk for an hour about this, about the hindrances, but fundamentally, what I realized was that these are this, what I was holding onto and the ill will I was having towards this person is actually preventing me from, from cultivating awareness, from cultivating an awakened mindset, which is what I'm really going for. So it's letting, it's, it reminded me that don't let these external factors control

and my joy and my happiness. And that's what oftentimes we give it away. We give away our joy, our happiness, our peace to others because of what has happened to us. But it's recognizing that actually we are in control of that. We decide how we will perceive the actions of others and we can do it in a skillful way or an unskillful way that doesn't benefit us.

Sahil (16:06.444)
So was there a moment where your mind on this retreat was kind of going crazy and you wanted to speak? I mean, if anybody knows you, Punket, you're a very social guy. I can't imagine you being in a room full of new people and not being like, hey, tell me about you and let's talk and let's connect. I mean, I could see you turning that into a really fun party.

Pankaj Raval (16:21.356)
Yeah.

haha

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Sahil (16:35.022)
So, so what did you do to hold yourself back and maintain that silent discipline? And, and was it you know, was it worth it? Was there something new that emerged where you had this forced silence? Did you experience yourself differently?

Pankaj Raval (16:50.655)
Yeah, no, that's a great point. People say that I go like, when people hear I go to these like silent meditation retreats, I think people are just like, wait, what? How are you? Of all people, I definitely like to talk and get to know people. But you know, honestly, this is a great counterbalance for me. It's a great balance because I am so social and I love talking to people, but I love getting to know people. But also, I think it really starts with getting to know yourself.

Sahil (16:58.488)
How? Yeah. Yeah.

Sahil (17:05.108)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (17:18.368)
you've got to really understand yourself first and go within so you can actually be better for those around you. And I think that's what I realized. with my mind was absolutely the first two days, my mind was crazy. some hindrance that came up a lot I recognized was doubt. I was doubting the practice. was like, I'm here, but my wife is with the kids. Is she's going to be upset with me? Is she's going to be angry that she had to take care of the kids and I'm here on this retreat?

all this was going through my head. And I was almost at a point where like, maybe I should leave one night before it closes just so I get back and I'm there for the kids in the morning. But then I realized, you know what, I committed to this. This is so I can be a better person for my wife, for my team here at Carbon Law Group, as a boss, as a colleague, as a husband, as a father. And I realized that's the work. That's the work I need to do. And it's actually just

being aware of that doubt was a breakthrough for me because in the past we questioned things, we questioned ourselves and we maybe act in a way based on maybe lack of confidence or doubt but it's actually just a hindrance. This is just a thought construct that comes up and maybe if we can cultivate more awareness around that, we can act in a more skillful way and for that, and it's more skillful way for me was actually to complete the retreat and

And have closure because I loved the teachers like this retreat is a washing cycle You're gonna you don't want to end it in midway through you want to complete the washing cycle So the first two days were very hard first two days My mind was going a million miles an hour and if anyone goes anyone goes on a retreat or have been on retreat They know that it's your mind it fights your mind fights for its existence fights for its relevance But it's actually learning to befriend the mind and say hey, it's coming back. It's when you're meditating

Sahil (18:50.647)
Hmm.

Pankaj Raval (19:15.229)
And you, and you, and you, your mind goes in a certain way, certain goes a certain place or, know, that, that maybe sometimes we're not aware of eventually you say, my mind is wandering. And then you bring it back to your breath and it's coming back to your breath. And, and that's the practice that's you'll repeat that for, for essentially five days straight.

Sahil (19:35.352)
So now that you're back, how has the retreat changed the way you think about work or leadership?

Pankaj Raval (19:44.906)
That's a great question. the retreat has changed the way I think about work in the sense that like, want to be more generous. I want to be a better listener. I want to really seek to understand in a way where before I think I was more in a problem solving mindset, I say, Hey, I'm a lawyer. I'm here to solve your problem. But before we can do that, I think

it's really about understanding what the true issues are for our clients. It's understanding what are their real concerns. I think everyone fundamentally has human concerns, has fears, has anxiety around everything they do. And they're reaching out to us to help address some of those fears, address some of the concerns that they have with the deal or contract or an employee or whatever it might be. So it's like really, I think, seeking to understand, and that's one of the

gifts, biggest, greatest gifts you can give people, I think in life and whether it be, you know, romantic partners, your colleagues, your clients is really listen. Like, are you really listening? Are you really there or are you just listening to them so you can think of your own response? So I think it's really that deep listening is a big takeaway for me in applying it. And I've been using it with clients and honestly, it's been great. It's become, it's created a lot less stress for me. And I've think I've,

been able to have a much better, deeper conversations with my clients because I'm not caught up in my head about, what are they thinking? What are they doing? What's happening in their head? Are they liking this conversation? Are they thinking I'm worth the time? Are they thinking I'm useless? Those are not thoughts that are going through my head anymore, which are natural, I think, for a lot of people. And it's not that they're going to stop, but it's like, we become more aware when they arise?

Sahil (21:38.466)
I think a lot of people might see mindfulness as running counter to their stereotypical vision of a lawyer who's super stressed, who doesn't have time for anything. And the idea of mindfulness and meditation may run counter to that stereotypical idea, but do you think that it will need to play a greater role in

the spiritual diet of the modern lawyer.

Pankaj Raval (22:09.906)
I think so, you know, honestly, I think it is a great tool that I have, that I can use to the benefit of my clients. I honestly think that if people meditated or had some kind of mindfulness meditation practice, they would be less stressed and they could act from a place of kind of creative understanding and creative problem solving as opposed to sometimes when we are stressed out.

we make problems worse. We make things worse, right? As we all know in our personal and professional lives. So if we can act from a place of peace, of confidence, of awareness, it allows us to make better decisions for ourselves and for our clients. And I think that will benefit all lawyers.

Sahil (22:57.526)
So, you know, we're living in the world and it's an interesting concept in Hinduism and Buddhism, I think, that we are worldly people and so we're not sadhus, we're not living in a cave in the Himalayas. So we have to find a way to balance the worldly responsibilities with spirituality and we can't be on a silent retreat at all times. So are there some practices that you think you will

be able to break out from the retreat that you could incorporate in your day-to-day life.

Pankaj Raval (23:33.554)
Absolutely, absolutely. And that's a great question. I'm glad you brought it up because it's so true. it's one thing to meditate for 18 hours or 15 hours a day in a retreat up in the mountains where it's beautiful. you know, everything, food meals made for you. You have no one else around you. No one else talking to you. You know, that's not life, right? That's not real life. So how do you bring that to your daily life? And I think there's a few ways to do that. One is

just to pay more attention to what you're doing. that's, know, one of the things we did was walking meditation. So there's sitting meditation, walking meditation. So could you bring more awareness to your walking, to your movements, to before you write an email? Could you take a deep breath? Something as little as that brings you back to the present moment. And I think there's a lot of ways you could incorporate that. You know, on my computer, there's a...

application I use sometimes called mindful minna. And mindful minna is a bell that goes off every hour or you can have it every half an hour, however often you want. But it's a bell. And that bell, because of my experiences going to the retreats, brings you back to the present moment. When you start a meditation and end a meditation, it ends in the bell. In a singing bowl being rung, I have that same sound come up on my computer just to remind me to come back to the present moment. But it's also just, can you take moments when you're eating? Eat without your device.

Can you sit with each other and just a great practice was eating meditation. At the retreat, when you would get the food, we would first say thank you to all those people who helped bring that food to your plate. It's taken a moment to become aware of, did it take to bring this food here? There's hundreds of people, thousands of people probably involved in getting this food to your plate from people who planted the seeds, to water the seeds, to pick the plants.

to transport them to the people in the kitchen. So being thankful for that and being aware of that and how our eating habits may affect the broader world to sitting with your food and then just chewing it, just the act of just being aware of what you eat. So many times we have food, we eat it, and all of a sudden we're like, wait, where'd go? We're not conscious of the act of eating. So that little practice is huge for me.

Pankaj Raval (25:58.699)
Especially if you're trying to lose a couple pounds, know, like we're like, okay, if you actually pay attention to what you're eating, you're probably going to eat less and you're probably going to do it more intentionally. You're probably going to enjoy the food less. The food there was so good. And I don't know if it's like only because of the chefs were so great. They, think they were great, but, it's also because we were totally present eating, drinking coffee, whatever it might be. Everything tasted so great. But I think part of that was because we were so in tune to what we were doing at that time, chewing the food 30 times.

putting down our fork, taking a bite, putting it on our fork, breathing. Like we savored it so much and I think that's a great metaphor for life. do you, life can be enjoyed so much more when you savor it.

Sahil (26:38.86)
love that. So there are gonna be a lot of people listening to this who are stressed out professionals, are not familiar with mindfulness practice or meditation. If you had to offer a bite-sized step to take your first step into mindfulness, especially for people who think that they're too busy, what would that first step be?

Pankaj Raval (27:05.638)
Well, know, the beauty about living in 2025 is that so many of these teachings, much of the practice is online or in the digital form, like on an app. So, you know, great way to start, there's great apps out there, Calm, Headspace. I use Waking Up app by Sam Harris, as well as there's a new app recently that I love that I've been using called The Way, created by Harry Shukman, who's a Zen teacher out of New Mexico.

And I love the way it takes you on little mini retreats and you can change the amount of time. can have a 10 minute meditation or a 30 minute, however long you want to do for whatever the guided meditations are. And it's really just starting small. I say if you don't have two minutes, take one minute. I think it's really, believe, in the act of just putting your butt on the couch or on the chair or on the cushion for least a minute or a couple of minutes a day and then slowly working up.

But if someone really wants to experience the true power and depth of meditation and mindful practice, I highly encourage a retreat because your brain requires a couple days to really calm and get into a place of meditative silence and peace. And I think that takes a longer retreat. However, the simple act of sitting for 20 minutes, 30 minutes a day, there's online sanghas now which you can join through InsideLA.

or other organizations where you can meditate with a bunch of people. There's real value in meditating with people. think that's what I refer to as when I say Sangha. The Sangha is essentially, there was 45 people at this retreat and we didn't talk for five days, but we saw each other and we provided so much support because sometimes I see someone's eyes open, I see someone fidgeting and I say, hey, you know what? I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one struggling with this, but we're all committed to the practice.

and continuing to keep going even when it is difficult.

Sahil (29:10.008)
So there is a sense of, there is a benefit to at least a temporary community support in terms of going deeper.

Pankaj Raval (29:20.166)
I think so, 100%. Yeah, I think community is absolutely important in life, whether it be with friends, relationships, community is so, so important and especially when it comes to meditation and mindfulness. Great to have your practice at home, to meditate with others, to have someone to share the teachings with you, there's great teachers out there. I love, there's actually a website called Dharma Seed where you can get Dharma talks from pretty much every...

popular teacher out there. There's thousands of Dharma talks on there. I highly recommend people going on there if they're interested in exploring more of the Dharma teachings. These are the teachings from Buddha who've interpreted by variety of different teachers. Some of my favorite are Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, Tar Braach, Jack Kornfield. Trudy Goodman is who started Inside LA and she's one of the teachers at this retreat I went to.

and just the wisdom that they have. They've been doing this for 40, 50 years. It's just profound.

Sahil (30:23.128)
There's a parable I heard about a Zen master teaching a very busy business person how to meditate. And he said, I don't have any time. I don't even have five minutes in my day. And he asked the Zen master, okay, well, what should I do? And he said, well, if you're busy, make sure you take five minutes in the day to meditate. If you're very busy and you don't have any time, make sure you take 20 minutes to meditate. Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (30:51.287)
So true. So true. Yeah. I agree. think the busier you are, the more you need this. The more you need that silence and more you need to kind of just check back in. And oftentimes, one thing I hear from people or even I was worried about is, does that mean I lose my edge as a lawyer, as a business person? You know, the desire to just get things done and charge, charge, charge.

Sahil (30:59.896)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (31:15.563)
I would say absolutely not. actually makes you, it actually refines your edge. It sharpens your edge in many ways because you can still act, but you're acting more skillfully because you're not just running around chasing the next best opportunity because you're actually acting from a place like, does this make sense for me? Does this make sense based on what I really want in life? And oftentimes we chase things that other people want. I think it's a symptom and unfortunately, disease of Western civilization is that we're so

Sahil (31:33.102)
Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (31:45.988)
we're so overwhelmed and obsessed with kind of what other people have. Look at our media and social media. We're always looking to what other people have. There's actually a term for that called memetic desire. And actually, if you recognize that, okay, do I really want those things? Is that really true to me? It really creates a lot more power for you to make better decisions for yourself. And I think you'll live a much more

Sahil (31:54.413)
Yeah.

Sahil (32:02.093)
Right.

Sahil (32:07.757)
Right.

Pankaj Raval (32:15.619)
fulfilled life if you can do that.

Sahil (32:18.862)
That's actually a very powerful insight, which is how often are we just being manipulated into desires that aren't our own every single day. And we're just chasing our own tails then without going where we actually want to go.

Pankaj Raval (32:25.889)
Yes. Yeah.

Pankaj Raval (32:34.724)
And I think it requires silence for us to really understand that. It requires us to be alone or be in a place where we have some kind of silence and you know, maybe it's maybe swimming for some people, maybe it's something else or something, you know, but in a place where you're not distracted by devices, games, and we know there's so many ways to distract ourselves nowadays, social media, and it's in that's why, but that's why this practice is even so much more important, like during the, during the

a device renunciation ceremony. I don't think they did this, know, a thousand years ago. I don't think that, I don't this is probably a newer addition to the Buddhist canon. But, but yeah, we had a device renunciation ceremony where we all gave up, gave up our devices. We kind of recognized that, hey, these can be their tools for good, also just, know, reasons for distraction. And then,

Sahil (33:06.998)
Love that. Yeah, exactly.

I'm ready.

Pankaj Raval (33:26.979)
We sat with that. now I'm actually, have a much better relationship with my device today than I had a week ago. I'm not looking at it as much. I'm leaving it in other rooms. I'm leaving it so I can be more present with my kids, more present with my wife, more present when we're eating. And it's not easy. These devices, even the teachers were talking, they're built to grab our attention and to suck us in and to get us to buy things and do things on there. So it's like, can we build it also, recalibrate our...

a relationship with those devices is really important.

Sahil (34:00.45)
My last question, this is letters of intent. If you had to draft a letter of intent based on what you've learned at this retreat, what would that letter of intent say?

Pankaj Raval (34:12.707)
Bye.

Pankaj Raval (34:16.077)
So.

love it because like letters of intent actually there's a lot to be said with intentions when it comes to the practice of Buddhism. And I actually had a convert, I had a question to the, to the one of the teachers. said, you know, other affirmations also used in Buddhism or is it, and he's like, no, actually it's more intentions. So I would say, may I be happy? May I be safe? May I be free of suffering? May I be of service to others?

and may I live a life of joy and peace so I can contribute to this world. That'd be my letter of intent. It would be an intention that I would set out that would hopefully guide me to making the best and most skillful decisions in my life ahead.

Sahil (35:08.898)
I think that's the perfect place to close. Thank you so much Pankaj for sharing your experience. To all our Carbon community, I'm Sahil Chaudhary, corporate attorney with Carbon, and you just heard from Pankaj Ravel, our managing partner. We look forward to staying connected and thank you all for listening.

Pankaj Raval (35:25.154)
Thank you.