Letters of Intent

[Speaker 2] (0:10 - 1:15)
All right, well, we are back with Carbon Connect slash Letters of Intent, which is our working title for this podcast. And today we have a special guest, Robby Penomeneni. Robby, as you'll get to know during this episode, and I go way back.

We have been friends for probably 25-30 years. At this point, it's hard to keep track. And he's one of my really good friends who we've known for many years and also were roommates in law school.

So a lot of stories probably for another podcast. Today we're going to be actually hearing about Robby's journey. Robby is a really interesting lawyer slash business person who has had a unique career in the sense that he has not only practiced law at some of the best law firms, but also then transitioned into on the business side and doing the deal side and has seen both sides of the table and has some really unique insights as far as career goes, picking a career and also just creating a journey that really speaks to yourself and is true to yourself. So without further ado, I want to introduce Robby.

[Speaker 1] (1:16 - 1:25)
Robby, how are you today, man? Hey, Pankaj. How are you?

Thanks for having me on. Thanks for the warm intro. Glad to be here.

Right. And we also have Sahil here today, our co-host.

[Speaker 2] (1:25 - 1:56)
Yes, that's right. I'm excited to talk to you, Robby, because I've read a little bit about your bio and it sounds like you're a risk taker. I mean, you entered the cannabis space at a pretty early stage.

You're an attorney and you also have a spiritual philosophy that seems like it's developed over time. So I know you were Pankaj's roommate, but I don't know as much about you. So I'd love to hear your story.

If we start from law school to where you are today, tell us the highlights. How did you become who you are?

[Speaker 1] (1:56 - 4:28)
Well, Sahil, you know, it was all a dream. No, I'm joking. So, you know, in all seriousness, look, in hindsight, in retrospect, everything looks like there was sort of a plan.

Right. But if I'm being transparent and honest, I think life evolves in ways that we don't expect, which is what makes it beautiful. Right.

That's what makes it amazing. And so I'm really fortunate to have had the experiences that I've had. But I'd be dishonest if I told you they were intentional at the time that I was making a lot of those decisions.

But I'm very fortunate for having made them. So I was trained at the University of Chicago, the University of Michigan and Vanderbilt University. I studied economics, you know, law, obviously.

I also have a master's in financial engineering. I spent some time in finance on Wall Street. So I've done a lot of different things, you know, in both finance, business, law.

And then, as you noted, you know, about 10 years ago, almost 10 years ago, I had an interest in the cannabis space. And you know, at the time, they weren't really interested in working with attorneys. So I did something very unique.

I went and actually just applied to be a retail buy tender, you know, for lack of a lack of a better term, for $13 an hour. You know, that experience, you know, kind of took me forward. You know, I ended up actually meeting my now wife through that experience.

So I've been blessed, you know, with that. And then they had the opportunity to meet a customer who ended up being one of the founders of iHeartMedia and Clear Channel. And he and I, along with, you know, other team members, were able to raise $50 million to capitalize a vertically integrated cannabis company in Los Angeles.

You know, we ended up scaling that business to an eight-figure revenue business and sold that business in 2019. And then from there, I've had various experiences, both as an operator, a chief operating officer, corporate counsel, you know, in the cannabis space. And then most recently, I've transitioned back into private practice, you know, servicing, you know, clients and, you know, both entrepreneurs, executives.

And that's kind of my wheelhouse. And I've been fortunate to continue kind of throughout my whole journey working with Punkage and Carbon Law Group. I've really been an ally and supporter of the things that I'm doing.

And it's always been great because I'm always doing these different things. And Carbon is always there to, they have the expertise to help. So that's been really, you know, that's been really fruitful in that relationship.

[Speaker 2] (4:29 - 4:56)
I want to ask you, I saw on your, you know, according to your bio, you've got big law experience, you've got experience on Wall Street. You take this job as a bud tender. That's a big risk.

That's a dramatic change in terms of your income, in terms of your training. So was it a desire to get into cannabis? Was it a desire to take a risk?

I mean, what catalyzes that kind of change?

[Speaker 1] (4:56 - 6:43)
You know, I was at this point in my life, I was going through a lot of transitions on the personal side. I think, you know, Punkage knows, you know, I had moved to L.A. I actually ended up quitting a job at a very large, well-known law firm in San Francisco. I just walked in one day.

I wasn't happy. And I said, I'm leaving. And I moved to L.A. with no plan. I was living on Punkage's sofa. I was doing some work for Carbon. I was doing some other freelance stuff.

So I was in this big, you know, transition phase. And I think like now that I can kind of look back on some of the pivot points in my life, like I always a good metaphor for me is that, you know, that Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade movie. I'm dating myself here.

I don't know how much of the audience has seen that, but there's this there's this moment in the movie where he has to walk across a canyon that has an invisible bridge and you can't see it. And so you have to take that step. And then once you take that step, it's like the bridge appeared and he didn't fall into the canyon.

And so that, you know, I'm able to say that I've taken a couple of those opportunities in my life where I've just taken that step. And so for me, I was interested. I was in a mode where I was trying things new.

I was doing things that maybe weren't what I had planned. It wasn't what, you know, didn't have the approval necessarily of my family. I'm sure my peers were like, you know, what the what the hell is this guy doing?

You know, you know, there was probably a lot of people that, you know, didn't understand what I was doing. And and surprisingly, Punkage was always very supportive and always in a happy place, you know, just going against the grain. Right.

I think that's always been your philosophy. And so, you know, very supportive. And so I was just in a I was in a mode to like try new things, you know, both just personally and professionally.

And I think when you're authentic to yourself and you listen to yourself and you know you're not happy in a certain situation, but you don't know what's next, you just got to start doing different things. And that was sort of the mode that I was in.

[Speaker 2] (6:44 - 7:03)
So a lot of us who go to law school and are lawyers tend to be more risk averse. And that's why we're lawyers. But you've got this quality where you seem to have an appetite for risk.

And yet you were trained as an attorney. How do you reconcile those two sides of yourself? Like, how do you how do you think about risk?

[Speaker 1] (7:04 - 8:50)
You know, I think it's you know, that this kind of goes into like my philosophical underpinnings and some of my spirituality is, you know, I believe there's a plan that's laid out. Right. And I believe that, you know, whether you call it God or the creator or the light or however you want to frame it, whatever your higher power is, has a plan.

Right. And I think that's a good plan. Right.

I don't think there's an intention that anyone has a bad plan. So for me, you know, I just have certainty. I know that whatever I do, that, you know, it's either going to be an experience that I learn from.

Right. Whether it works out or not. And then if not, I know that I can have success doing it.

I think it comes down to the person. Right. And the determination and certainty in yourself and the things that you can accomplish.

So for me, it took me a while to get to that headspace. You know, like I am obviously very, you know, grew up very risk averse, you know, Indian family, parents or physicians. You know, we all know the the formula.

Right. Went to law school, all those types of things. So I definitely had to kind of break out of some of those those paradigms that I grew up within.

But really, I think it's just believing in yourself and then also knowing that these different experiences really help you service clients better. Right. Like you understand different people.

Right. And when I talk to people like when I was an executive at a cannabis company, you know, I know what the bartenders feel like. I know the people that are like in the packaging room or in the supply room or the growers or, you know, the investors like I've been all of those different people.

You know, I know what they do on their lunch break. I know where they're going to eat lunch. I know I know what they're thinking about on the weekends.

And so I think having the opportunity to serve in these different roles makes you better at servicing others. And so that's always been a real motivation and a foundation for everything that I do.

[Speaker 2] (8:51 - 9:48)
I mean, I think you talk about spirituality and I know we're going to talk about, you know, we get to the to the the legal elements of this talk. But I think, you know, I find spirituality, both Sal and I, you know, we're both very interested in it. And I think it's so important because, you know, we are beyond lawyers, beyond business people.

We are humans. Right. And we all are trying to figure out our way in this world.

And, you know, and and trying to make the most of our time where we all are going to meet this final, the one final destination that everyone has and has in common. So, you know, living a life that is true to yourself. I guess two part question, why do you feel like do you feel like people lose their sense of self when they're, you know, in their life?

Why do people lose their sense of self and how do you get back to your true self? What has allowed you to kind of, you know, do all these wonderful things, but perhaps didn't speak to your own authentic nature? And how did you get back there?

[Speaker 1] (9:48 - 11:39)
Look, I think it's like, you know, there's a couple of ways to get there in my life. I think, you know, like like everyone else, there's been some adversity. There's been some things that didn't work out the way that I had wanted.

And, you know, I initially took those on the chin and took it personally. And I, you know, later in life realized that these are opportunities for me to learn and grow and do something more. And so that's kind of the philosophy that I've had is like, you know, anything that's happening in my life, like it's it's for my benefit, you know, even though I don't see it at that point.

So what might be a disappointment initially really is for my benefit. And so I've learned to just become thankful for all the different things that happen to me in my life. And and I've learned to just, you know, be a little less reactive to all of it.

Right. And I think and I think that's what's really been a good foundation for me and my growth and then also professionally, I think, you know, we talked about I know you and I talk a lot about just sort of negotiation and and sort of the art of the negotiation. And I think like there's a tendency for people to be reactive and have ego and want to dominate and, you know, reminisce to the Gordon Gekko or the 80s movies that we saw.

And I think that's just that's not reality or at least it's not anymore. Right. And so I think the more secure that we as service providers, ultimately, that's what we are.

We're in client service. The more secure we are with ourselves and our egos, the better than we can serve our clients. You know, and, you know, specifically when it comes down to like negotiating certain agreements, I think like having a having an intent to be collaborative versus adversarial, having an intent to not necessarily win, but to like, you know, create something with the other party.

I think, you know, it's just a mind shift change, you know, that I think really helps get things done the right way and in the best way.

[Speaker 2] (11:40 - 11:54)
So where did the spiritual awakening, this philosophy come from? Was it an ayahuasca retreat? Was it a meditation event?

Like give us kind of that aha moment, like what cracked open this perspective?

[Speaker 1] (11:54 - 13:14)
I think it's just it's probably a lot of what we've all gone through. Right. I think as you get older and you live different experiences, you have children.

Right. I think that's like a huge eye opener for a lot of people. Right.

Like myself included. You know, you start to take note like of who you are. Right.

And I think, you know, for me, I've collected all these different experiences. And as I just reflect back, like what can I learn from them? You know, I've always seen this thread of like spirituality or something guiding me through or holding my hand or helping me.

Right. And so I'm able to sort of like in retrospect, in hindsight, really see how that thread has been woven through all the different experiences, you know, in my life. And then, you know, like again, having children has been highly positive impact for me.

Right. We're all a mirror to our children. Right.

And so you start to become cognizant of like who you are. Right. And I think I'm paraphrasing.

I read somewhere like, you know, raising kids is not really about like teaching them what to do, but it's about changing yourself, you know. And I think I think for me that that's something that I've been really trying to practice and implement, you know, in my life is like, how can I change myself? Because I'm this mirror now for someone else, you know.

And so what are the things that I can do to be a better person?

[Speaker 2] (13:14 - 14:07)
That's amazing. I think definitely a lot to discuss with kids and how that, you know, that shapes us and changes us. But, you know, given we are we have kind of a fixed time here and definitely, you know, there could be part two and three here of this of this conversation.

But, you know, today I wanted to also get into a little bit of the you know, the details, the the elements of actually being a lawyer and your practice, because, you know, you've had a lot of different experiences in the law, done a lot of different types of deals. And I think, you know, most most notably, you know, at the big firms, you are a real estate attorney. Right.

So I wanted to kind of learn a little bit more about what that entails, what kind of deals you worked on and maybe how your background or even how your kind of spiritual approach affects how you deal with clients or deal with negotiations when it comes to real estate matters.

[Speaker 1] (14:08 - 18:16)
Yeah, so, I mean, you know, I started my career at Kirkland & Ellis. I started in the restructuring group in 2009. So we were doing debtor side representation, corporate bankruptcies.

And at that time, as you all remember, you know, the real estate market kind of fell apart in 2008. So we were doing a lot of real estate restructurings. I had the opportunity to work on general growth properties, which was twenty seven billion dollar restructuring, largest restructuring at that time.

And so I was working on the bankruptcy side, doing a lot of real estate restructurings kind of in that time period. From there, I transitioned to Latham & Watkins and I got into a purely transactional real estate practice. And there and then subsequent experiences that I had at Paul Hastings, I was just representing a lot of, you know, different kind of real estate companies, developers, private equity company, private equity firms, things of that nature.

When I made my way to California, I had the opportunity to represent, you know, Facebook, LinkedIn, Salesforce, you know, a lot of their real estate deals. And a lot of these companies have huge real estate holdings. And so, you know, it's a very technical job.

Right. I think real estate is a very varied industry. Like I think when you're looking at a lease, like if you're looking at a lease for like a Facebook, there's a lot of power requirements.

There's a lot of you know, they have a lot of data centers. Right. And that's not normally what you would find.

And maybe some other types of commercial leases. So, you know, for me, that was like an eye opener and a great opportunity, because I think when we think of a lease or we think of like, you know, a commercial lease, we're kind of thinking they're cookie cutter or, you know, you got to look at X, Y and Z. But really what I've learned is it's about understanding your client, like what are their needs?

You know, like what you pay in monthly rent is obviously one component of it. But to me, that's like the easiest part. Right.

It's a number on a piece of paper. Like that's not really controversial, but it's like everything else. It's like, what kind of power requirements do you need, if any?

You know, what kind of assignment provisions are you planning on trying to sell this business later? Those things become very important. And I've seen clients get held up when they don't have a solid assignment provision or that it's in the sole discretion of the landlord.

And so these are things that you'll want to think about are personal guarantees or corporate guarantees. You know, those are things that you'll want to think about. So I think like being able to really understand like what your clients needs are and learning that story.

And that's where the fun is. Right. Like a lot of people think that law is boring.

I think you can make it really boring like anything else. But if if really you look at yourself as a storyteller and then really understanding the story of your client, like I think it becomes much more personal. And so all these different experiences have kind of led me to that approach is, you know, let's really try to understand what are they trying to do here?

Right. Obviously, they want to they want to operate some sort of business or headquarters or office or operation here. Like, again, that's the easy part.

But are they trying to raise more money down the line? You know, are they going to have to pledge this as collateral? You know, is there some sort of financing consideration?

Are they looking to do an exit right away? You know, are they looking to go public? Like, what are the different things that they're trying to do?

And then it's also like, what other assets do they have? What are some things that are outside the scope of representation that we need to think about that the client's not thinking about? Right.

Like it's like when you go to a doctor, you don't know what you don't know. Right. Like you can tell them your elbow hurts, but they need to be thinking, is that related to, I don't know, some something going on in your heart?

Like, is that related to something going on somewhere else? And so I think as attorneys, I think, you know, we have the opportunity to do that. Right.

To make this a very personal thing and try to understand all the different components. And again, jumping back to leases like, you know, Punkage, you and I have spent hours kind of doing these kinds of deals. But like, you know, you got to look at like, what are the CC&R say?

What are the, you know, what are these other documents say? What are the restrictions on uses? Like, what are the things that are outside the lease document that we have to be thinking about that we have to put the client on notice of, you know?

And so and so that's kind of been my approach. And that's kind of what I've been able to take away from all of these different experiences.

[Speaker 2] (18:16 - 18:34)
I was going to ask. So, you know, in working with the numerous clients you've worked with over the years, what do you think is like a mistake or a common mistake you see clients make early on in the leasing process? Is there something that you see like, hey, you didn't do this, your life would have been easier or this would have been you'd have been in a better position to negotiate?

[Speaker 1] (18:35 - 21:48)
The good and bad thing about leases is like they can be largely intuitive. Right. Like, you know, like I think anyone can really just take a lease and like read it and like understand like the material provisions, which I think is a great thing.

But I think the danger in that is that some clients think like, oh, I don't I don't need a lawyer for this or I only need a lawyer for that. Or, you know, and I understand this, like what's there to understand? Like they want to charge me, you know, X dollars per month.

It's for two years, like it's five years. Like what's the big deal? And most recently, it's actually interesting you brought this up.

Like, you know, we had a client that came to me that was working with someone else where there was some, you know, call it a mistake or a typo or there was some confusion over when the triple net payments would start. Right. So it was a large commercial lease.

The tenant was coming in. They're a franchise. They needed to do some tenant improvements.

So there was like a period of like six months where they needed to do the tenant improvements. And then the rent was to be abated, you know, for that time period. But when the final documents got signed, I think literally like instead of like, you know, rent commencement, it said commencement or something like that.

And basically that one word was the client told me yesterday was a sixty six thousand dollar mistake for them because they ended up being liable for these triple nets. And so, again, that's where it comes down to, like, not only the attention to detail, but like really understanding all the different components are going on and where it's super helpful to get that support from someone who has experience in this. And so I think that would be the number one is clients kind of thinking they can do it all on their own is really kind of like the primary mistake that that I see sometimes in terms of like other things to look out for.

I think like look, assignments always a big one for me. Right. So it's like, what are you going to do later?

Like if you want to sell this, you need to assign the lease. And how hard is that? You know, I have another client that's been held up for I don't know how long because there's a sole discretion requirement for her landlord to consent to an assignment.

And he's just never consented. And, you know, she's been kind of just in a standstill trying to figure out how to sell her business. And it's become now more of a like a personal situation with the landlord trying to understand, you know, get them to get on the same page.

So it's those types of things that I think, you know, you'll want to look at. Obviously, the guarantees is always like something that, you know, you're going to want to look at. And then obviously, I always like to look at, you know, like what if things don't work out right?

Like what if you're in a 10 year lease and the business is not working out? Like, can I sublet this? Like, can I get someone in there to like mitigate my liability because I have to leave and terminate the lease early?

You know, what are my options there? You know, and so and then a lot of that is also working with the real estate brokers. Right.

And understanding the optionality of getting new tenants and knowing the market. Right. Like I think we're in a day and age now where attorneys now have to know the business and the market.

Right. You can't just be a paper pusher. Like if you're doing a real estate deal and, you know, Scottsdale, Arizona, like you need to know like what is going on in the real estate market in Scottsdale, Arizona, you know, not just like the four corners of the document.

[Speaker 2] (21:49 - 22:19)
Talked about your time in big law doing multi-billion dollar transactions in your current practice. You also represent small to mid-sized companies and high net worth individuals. How do you reconcile and strategize?

What's the difference between representing a large, complex client like that and representing someone who's in a small to mid-sized client? Are there differences in terms of how you approach the deals? Yeah, I think it's discretion.

[Speaker 1] (22:19 - 24:05)
Right. Like when you have like a multi-billion dollar client, you know, they have like a retainer that's, you know, five or six figures large and, you know, they want you to go scorched earth on everything, dot every I, cross every T, like going down every rabbit hole. Right.

Because they have the money to do that. You know, oftentimes they're public companies, they have obligations and reporting obligations. So they have to kind of like do the scorched earth approach.

But I think with the smaller to mid-sized clients, it comes down to discretion. Right. Like, and it comes down to integrity.

Like, you know, a good example, I had a client the other day, like we have a vendor that, you know, sent in a supplier contract. I thought it was a completely garbage contract. Right.

Like it was like literally, I didn't even think they used like chat. I didn't even, I was like, you know, I was like, what? I didn't even understand.

But, but then I had to have the discretion, like, does it make sense for me to bill my client all this money to go scorched earth to kind of turn out the Mona Lisa here? Or do I need to kind of take a step back and try to understand what they're trying to do? They're trying to do something really short term.

They're on a tight budget. You know, they need to get this done. This is not like one of those, like, you know, nice to have.

We need to get this deal done. They need this deal to get done. So I had to come in and just be like, OK, I'm not really too happy with a lot of this contract, but I'm going to make sure we can terminate it really easily with no liability.

Right. And, you know, so I'm going to give, you know, I want like three days notice. I can terminate for whatever reason.

No questions asked. Right. And so it's like having that discretion of like, how do we get the deal done?

And how do we then mitigate any risk? But without like, you know, going into a rabbit hole and billing an ungodly amount for the client.

[Speaker 2] (24:05 - 24:46)
Makes sense. Makes sense. No, I think it's all great insight.

I think, you know, this is something we deal with a lot, too. You know, working with small to midsize clients, it's you have to make more judgments about what is what is important, what is not. And, you know, I think you're right.

You don't always need the Mona Lisa. You don't need a Ferrari when a Toyota will do. You know, it's and I think that's that's I think the that's the mentality you need from like a small business lawyer, right?

Someone who works with small emerging growth companies, because, yeah, a lot of clients, you don't they don't have all unlimited funds to spend on legal. So you know, you want to make sure you can help them achieve their business objectives.

[Speaker 1] (24:48 - 25:26)
Yeah, I think it and I think it like it keeps that that's how you maintain that client for life. Right. Like I think on my on my first day at Kirkland and Ellis, you know, Jack Levin, you know, known as the father of private equity, you know, gave us a kind of a first year talk and he said, you know, make your clients, your friends and your friends, your clients, you know, and I think that's like a that's a philosophy there, like when you do right by your clients and you're not there just to like bill hours or check boxes on getting things done, but you're really like an ally as if this is your own deal or it's your family members deal.

I think people respect that. And that's how you create more long term value, not only for yourself, but for your client.

[Speaker 2] (25:26 - 26:07)
Right. Absolutely. I think I think all like really, really, that's really good advice.

Who was the who was the person again that gave the talk? Jack Levin. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, people can we could probably put that in the show notes because I think linked to that, linked even talks by him because I know I've seen some really good talks by these private equity guys, two lawyers, a lot of them came from law and now are in private equity.

And it is so true in terms of like client development. And and actually, it brings up a good question about, you know, when when thinking about client development and building relationships with clients, how do you go about it? How do you go about, you know, building the rapport with clients and making sure that they have that trust in you?

[Speaker 1] (26:08 - 27:33)
You know, and this this kind of jumps back to my philosophy of just like how I operate, I think it's really like showing up like you don't need anything. Right. I think when people show up in your life and they are trying to sell you on something or they're trying to take something or they need something like that aura just comes off.

Right. So like I always try to show up like in a real authentic way where I'm here to listen, but, you know, I don't need anything from you and it doesn't sound like you may need anything from me right now. And usually when I take that approach, I'm able to kind of like filter out a lot of the noise of what my personal agenda might be and and really listen and see what is the client need, you know, and how can I just give them advice without the agenda of them hiring me?

And when I've taken that approach, it usually just a lot of times converts into them wanting to work with me because I think they pick up on that energy of like, you know, I don't really need anything, but I'm happy to help and happy to service my clients. That's what I do for a living and that's what I enjoy. And so that's how I've been able to build my book of business is really being an ally to different executives and different companies without trying to sell them on anything or have like an agenda or pitch them anything.

And I have taken a page out of your book. I think that's a little bit how you operate, Punkage. I've seen you over the years.

It's you're just you're there to help. And if that turns into something, then great. You know, and if not, that's OK, too.

[Speaker 2] (27:34 - 28:01)
I think that's the authenticity, you know, that really matters, you know, and it really it's easy to smell if it's off, right? And clients can really tell. And I think it's like, yeah, how you approach life, how you approach people.

And I think it's like a habit, too. I think it's not something ideally you want to turn on and off. It's something you want to approach.

You want to practice and every everyone with everyone you meet and everything you do because then it becomes really natural. Right. And yeah, I think clients definitely do see that.

[Speaker 1] (28:02 - 29:26)
Yeah. And so it's like and I've become like, you know, you know, I don't take on every client. I'm very selective with like who I work with because I want to be able to give energy right into each of these clients that I work with.

Right. And it's not just documents like I'm really giving a part of myself, you know, for better or worse, you know, into these different clients. And so, like, I'm very selective on on who I work with.

And, you know, as much as they're interviewing me, I'm interviewing them. And I think like, you know, Pankaj, you know, this after I think when you first start, we all want to take on every client, you know, we want to work with everybody. And then over time, you realize, like, OK, there's some people that are just tough to work with and some people that are easy to work with.

And so I'm also very mindful of just listening to my gut, listening to my intuition on like who's the right fit. You know, and I encourage clients to do that, too. It's very personal.

Like when people pick attorneys, it's like picking a doctor. Right. It's not it's not about credentials or where you did this or where you did that.

It's like, how do you feel around that person? Like, you know, do you trust them? Do you think they care?

Do you think they have time? You know, as as attorneys, like ethically, like, you know, we're all, you know, we need to have the duty of competence, right, you know, professional responsibility. And I think part of having the duty of competence is and duty of diligence is is making sure that this attorney is really invested in like an authentic way.

You're not just another number, another client, you know, another invoice.

[Speaker 2] (29:27 - 30:01)
You know, I wanted to ask how this plays into your negotiation strategy. So, for example, as an attorney, you're going to be drafting and constructing agreements, but then you also will often play lead negotiator on behalf of your clients. So how does this and you're talking kind of like the world is not this Gordon Gekko era, you know, screaming on the phone.

That's not how you get what you want. So what would be kind of your rules of negotiation, your rules to representing your client in a negotiation? How do you feel?

How do you think about negotiation?

[Speaker 1] (30:02 - 32:02)
So I think the negotiations two ways. I think the first negotiation starts with your client by, like, you know, letting them know what the risks are, you know, getting them on board with what the different variables are and helping them also understand that this is a give and take. Right.

And it's not a it's not a zero or one. It's not binary. Right.

And then I think the second part of it for me is just, again, philosophically, it's just like, who are we as human beings? Like, nobody likes to lose. Right.

Like, nobody likes to be told no. Like, you know, and so I try to create opportunities where everyone feels like they got something that they wanted. Right.

And so, like, sometimes that means going in to the deal and ahead of time, like, you know, you use it as a poker chip. Right. I've already put in my head, like, I know I'm going to give up on these three things, but we're going to keep them here right now on the side.

So when the time comes, I'll give it up. I can give the counterparty that dopamine hit of like, hey, you know, I got this, you know, everyone feels, you know, satisfied. Right.

And so that's that's kind of my my approach is like, you know, helping the client understand what are the expectations, a what is market, like what is standard, what are the considerations given this like unique situation, you know, what's fair, you know, and then and then trying to understand from them like what they're willing to do. Ultimately, the client makes the decision right on all the substantive stuff. Right.

As attorneys, we're here to help them, guide them along, but they have to make the substantive decisions on how the case evolves or how the deal evolves. And so I think, you know, getting synced with the client and then when we go to negotiate, then we know what we can do and what we can't do. But I always know that there's something that I'm going to give to the other side.

Right. Like there's never a deal I go into thinking I'm going to get everything I want. I don't even try it.

I don't want everything because that's not going to work. So like we have to decide, like, what are we willing to compromise on before?

[Speaker 2] (32:03 - 32:19)
No, this is great. I think a lot of rather a lot of really great insight today. I was wondering if there's any is there like a quote or a book maybe that you feel like you've benefited a lot from that you might want to share with the listeners?

Well, number one is DJ Quake.

[Speaker 1] (32:19 - 33:34)
If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense. You know, so I think that's actually how you signed your leases. Yeah, that's in my email signature.

You know, I don't know if it's a quote, but it's like, you know, I think like we already have everything right. Like when you go into a deal, when you go into negotiation, like don't go in with that lack, you know, don't go in with that neediness or that that take mentality or that angry mentality. We already have what we need.

Right. And so I think if you go in with that mindset, like it's going to be a lot more collaborative. You're going to get what you want done and you're going to get a lot further.

And this isn't me like advocating to be weak. Like there's times you have to fight for your client and there's times you have to be aggressive and there's times you have to push. And you know me well, Pankaj, like I'm not afraid of doing that, you know, like where you know when you need to step up for your client and kind of draw a line in the sand.

Like, yeah, you got to be ready to do that. But I don't think like you need to go in with that mentality. Right.

I think it's it's being that stoic of like you don't need to be hyper emotional or like aggressive or negative, but you know what your boundaries are and you know what you're going to do and you're going to stick by it. So I think that's that's kind of my philosophy on kind of the the art of the negotiation, as it were.

[Speaker 2] (33:35 - 33:54)
That's it for me. Any any follow up questions for you? I just wanted to ask, is there an industry right now that is that you're excited about?

Is there a certain industry where clients are coming from or clients that you're an industry that's really getting you excited and that deals that you're really enjoying working on?

[Speaker 1] (33:54 - 35:06)
Yeah, I mean, look, I think like, you know, CPG consumer packaged goods is is something that I'm really interested in, like having had experience like in the cannabis industry, like it's CPG, right? It just happens to be cannabis. So like, you know, being able to like service and help clients in that space, I think is like super exciting.

And I think like it, you know, our whole world now is like, you know, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. So like, you know, inevitably any sort of CPG stuff you're doing like is going to there's going to be this Venn diagram into like digital and marketing and like, you know, influencers and things like that. So I think like those things are really exciting.

Cannabis, I obviously like service clients in the cannabis industry still. And then I think like blockchain and A.I. I think I think, you know, a lot of people like to throw those terms around, but like we don't really understand that body of law in terms of how it's not a fully built out body of law. And that's what I like.

That's what excites me. That's why I got into cannabis is because the regulatory framework is very complex. It's not they haven't figured it out yet.

And it's like a puzzle trying to get stuff done. And I think A.I. and blockchain presents another regulatory challenge. And like, how are these things evolving?

And I think, you know, that those are things that I'm super excited about.

[Speaker 2] (35:07 - 35:30)
Well, Robbie, you know, it's been awesome chatting today. I know we chat fairly often, but, you know, in this context, we don't really get into the details of deals and or spend a little while. So I really, really enjoyed our conversation today and appreciate you taking the time.

Yeah. Thanks for having just for your listeners. How do people get in touch with you if they want to connect?

[Speaker 1] (35:30 - 35:37)
Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm my name is Robbie Penomenany. I can put my email, you know, we can post it up here.

[Speaker 2] (35:38 - 35:38)
We'll put it on the show.

[Speaker 1] (35:38 - 35:48)
Yeah, that's the best way to get a hold of me. And then obviously, you know, I'm I'm do a lot of work with Carbon Law Group. So people can always, you know, reach me through you and Carbon as well.

[Speaker 2] (35:50 - 35:57)
All right, man, thanks so much again. Thanks for thanks for taking the time. And until we chat again, man.

Yeah. Thanks, guys. Take care.

Thank you.