Letters of Intent

Pankaj Raval (00:04)
welcome back to Letters of Intent. My name is Pankaj Raval and I'm here joined with my co-host, Sahil Chaudry Sahil, how are you today?

Sahil (00:11)
Doing great, I'm excited about our guest.

Pankaj Raval (00:13)
Yes, we are very lucky to have in our presence today the popular content who has been and immigration rights on TikTok and a variety of other platforms. Today our guest is Daven Ghandi, founder and managing attorney of Kaza Law, an immigrant-led law firm based in New York. Originally from Malaysia, Daven to the US as an international student.

built his life here from the ground up and now helps countless families and businesses navigate the immigration system with empathy and strategy. And I emphasize enough the importance of empathy here with what Daven does. I've gotten the chance to know him the years and see what he's done and built. And really, one of those leaders and liturnies who leads from the heart. extremely unique in the world we live in today. Beyond his legal work, he is also exploring storytelling.

through an upcoming children's excited to hear more reframing how we think about and talk about immigration. Daven, welcome.

Daven Ghandi (01:08)
Pankaj Sahil, thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. Thank you again for inviting me on your Letters of a Intent podcast. Super excited to dive into our conversation today.

Pankaj Raval (01:18)
Yes, absolutely, we're really excited to chat with you. I've been watching you and what you've done online and content creation been doing such a great job people's rights and also educating people the immigration system. And I wanna start kind how you even got into this. I always love to hear kind of people's genesis stories. So tell us, take us back to what got you interested in immigration law. where did you grow up?

and how did you get to the place you are today?

Daven Ghandi (01:42)
Yeah, I interest in immigration law probably go back to when I first arrived in the United States in fall of 2007, actually, I think 18 years, maybe to the date, because I remember it was right before September. just living the experience as an immigrant, also just culturally being in America and trying to.

Pankaj Raval (01:53)
Wow.

Daven Ghandi (02:02)
get used to, for example, the nudity in locker rooms or the greenness of grass and snow. When I came to America, I had never seen snow in my life. So I picked Wisconsin because I heard it was going to snow six out of 12 months. So the first time it snowed, I remember just being so excited. You know, just like one other thing that just reminded me a lot of my beginning days were probably

Pankaj Raval (02:17)
Hahaha

Daven Ghandi (02:24)
the amount of how I stood out, how hyper visible I was, because I went to Wisconsin and my school was 97 % white. So I was maybe one of five brown kids on campus and everybody wanted to speak to me. So it was very exciting just, you know, at that time. And then how I got into immigration was probably just every school that I went to. So I did my bachelor's, then I went to law school, and then I graduated and I had to figure out how do I get a job.

Pankaj Raval (02:40)
Wow.

Daven Ghandi (02:51)
and getting that visa sponsorship, I think it was just my whole experience in it. And then on top of that, I was just very interested in human rights law. And immigration law is one of those areas that really incorporated international human rights law and codified it into American law. that drew me to immigration as well.

Pankaj Raval (03:08)
Yeah, I love that. Actually, I had an interest in human rights law, when I first started practicing too, I worked at Amnesty International and I feel like, there's so much that can be done in immigration. So your journey as an immigrant US, what were the challenges that you saw as you were trying to navigate this system?

Daven Ghandi (03:24)
think it was knowing. I came as an international student, the international student advisors were not allowed to advise international students on legal matters. So they'll always to school and then return back to your home country. Even though laws do provide for international students to then work in the United States. So I think it was just not knowing what is available. And then it was also

For example, getting into law school, I had to pick a school that had a spring semester intake rather than a fall because my visa was about to end. And then after graduating, at one point I had to leave the United States because I couldn't get an employer to sponsor me. And then coming back into the US and finding an employer to then sponsor me and then going through that process. think these were just some of difficulties I felt throughout the immigration journey.

I remember one instance, I had to, so for me it was also the financial issue, right? Like coming to America and then realizing that the currency here is four times that of Malaysia. And so my parents had to pay for my entire law school and undergrad. And at one point in one semester, know,

I needed to go back home to run my parents business so had to take a semester off school to return to Malaysia and work so that I could afford tuition. And I remember when I went back to the visa interview at the consulate in Malaysia, US consulate there, the officer denied my visa saying that he knows that I'm going to drop out of school and overstay in America.

And I think that was also just kind of like a push, like to be like, you know what, I'm going to prove you wrong and I'm going to like excel at this. And so I think just having those, not just, know, financial issues and the immigration issues, I think also actually living through the experience of getting my visa denied and for people not believing in me really pushed me achieve everything that I am achieving right now.

Pankaj Raval (05:10)
Yeah, absolutely. That's amazing. Yeah. I know it's salute you because it's not an easy system. I would think about it sometimes, you had to immigrate to another country? What would I do? know, how and the complexities involved. You know, provide a lot of education online looking to navigate this process. You today there's obviously so many more resources than people had even in, you 2007, 2009, especially online. What would you suggest to someone today who's trying to

do what you did and US.

Daven Ghandi (05:36)
Yeah, well first is just to, think above everything else is the mindset. I think just always believing in yourself first and foremost and knowing that no matter what you will succeed is like the number one thing that all immigrants, no matter where you are, or where you come from should have when you're coming to America. On top of that, I think right now it's also very different climate wise in America.

Immigrants are vilified, for lack of better word, in the American politics right now, in the news. And so it's a lot to deal maybe not just the system itself, but also people's opinions of you. So.

At the very basic, and this is what I strive to do on social media as well, is just to know what your rights are, know what your options are. I think compared to back then, right now, are, the rise of social media, there are so many information out there, and just being able to understand the process, at least at the very basic level, is super important. think, especially now, whenever immigrants are looking for a job, and I know I face this, I had to oftentimes explain to my employer,

what visa meant or what they needed to do to sponsor my visa. And I think now because everything is so readily available, super for anyone to kind understand the basics of it.

Sahil (06:49)
it's so interesting that you have this lived experience of the immigration system and now you're able to advise your clients on the immigration system. I feel like that gives you a very unique advantage in terms of being able to empathize and also just practically knowing the pitfalls that people might run into. How does having personally navigated the US immigration system change the way you advise your clients today?

Daven Ghandi (07:14)
I think it is just, and you're right, it's just the understanding of their struggles because I've lived through that exact same thing. think always being able to just remind myself every time, even if I'm a little frustrated are...

questions that arise out of maybe fear or confusion and I am there now and I'm able to give them what I wanted back then. So I think being the attorney I always wanted to have is what's guiding me right now.

Sahil (07:42)
is so cool. I love the way you put that. Being the attorney that you wish you had. you share a personal story where your journey directly influences today how you handle a case? Maybe an incident you had before you were an attorney where wish you had an attorney who could have guided you at that time with the knowledge you have today.

Daven Ghandi (08:01)
You know, I want to say the really beautiful thing about having my own law firm is that now I get to take on cases that I want to work on. And so that being said, like I love every single area of law that I practice in immigration, I mean. And so a lot of it is basically because influenced by my So I love helping international students who are trying to navigate the process and trying to get employment.

But what I connect with most is young children. So just a little bit about my background. When I was much younger, I was the survivor of childhood abuse. And so now the thing that really I connect with most is helping other immigrant children in the United States. So children who've been abandoned, abused, or neglected by their family members and then them coming to America to try and find some kind of refuge.

Being able to guide them through the process and understanding also a little bit about what they've lived through really just makes me a lot more... I don't want to say passionate, but just makes my advocacy a lot more strong.

Sahil (09:02)
speaking of your advocacy, you were talking about how the climate has changed and was much different even when you first immigrated to the United States. So how does the climate today play into your practice of law and advising your clients?

Daven Ghandi (09:16)
It is one that I'm not new to because we had the exact same situation between 2016 and 2020. But it's just on a larger scale. think now it's, at least at that point, I was able to maybe predict outcomes of situations. But now, even as immigration attorneys, think attorneys are struggling to even keep up with laws.

things are changing so often I'm advising clients or when I'm taking on a case I have to always give a caveat like this is what the law is right now it might change in a month it might change in a few weeks I cannot I can only tell you what's being put out there in the news so I think a lot of immigration attorneys are experiencing burnout because we just don't know what it is and I think

For example, I went to get my haircut recently and I was speaking to Barbara and Barbara was know, just don't want to hire attorneys at this point because what's the point of paying thousands of dollars if I'm just going to get deported anyway? And it made so much sense because that's how I feel when I go to court these days. A lot of times what's happening is government attorneys are, and ICE, they're kind of working together in a way where they're dismissing cases in immigration court. As soon as the...

Sahil (10:16)
Wow.

Daven Ghandi (10:31)
the respondents or the immigrants to leave ICE agents out there detaining them. And so it just feels like I'm going into a battlefield that I know there's no chance me or my clients are gonna win. So as far as how it's affected my practice, I have also stopped trying to do as much of the removal defense cases because right now it's just almost impossible.

Sahil (10:44)
Wow.

Pankaj Raval (10:44)
Yeah, I was...

mean, it's sad. know, we see a lot of these. We see a lot of what's happening You know, the videos of people being detained at ICE immigration hearings. You know, as lawyers, think anytime there's uncertainty in the law, it makes it very difficult for us. Right. Like, how do we how do we properly guide clients when we don't know how the courts will interpret the laws? Because I think another challenging thing is like, OK, we may even have laws, but

Are they going to be enforced? Are they going to be the immigration courts? Are they going to be followed? So how help clients with that? How do you help them navigate the system when it's in such, I would argue disarray, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Maybe I'm not on the ground like you are.

Daven Ghandi (11:32)
Yeah, I think if there's word to even describe this array, it'd probably be that, like something that's worse than that. know, I think at this point, it's so hard. It's really hard just because I don't know the answer to that, if I'm just being completely honest, because what I can do is tell the clients, hey, these are your options. This is what you can qualify for. And I tell them what their rights are, like,

Pankaj Raval (11:38)
Okay.

Daven Ghandi (11:53)
If you get detained, don't sign any documents because you could be signing your deportation orders. Say you want to speak to an attorney. Know your rights to remain silent. I can brief them, or I can tell them what their rights are. the reality is rights are being trampled on and they don't care about rights. And so at the end of the all I could do is just tell

They have rights too, but if their rights are being violated, they shouldn't fight back. They should just go with the system.

Sahil (12:20)
So, Daven, have a question. You have quite a significant social media following. Do you feel like with that platform you have a responsibility to the community to share news about what's going on or information? How do you see your voice in the current climate of so much political disarray?

Daven Ghandi (12:39)
I think in two ways, right? One is just sharing my personal experience with what's going on. Like how I, so I'm not a US citizen. I came here as an international citizen. I'm a lawful permanent resident. And so I myself fear leaving the country because of how involved I am with immigration rights and with immigration law in general.

And I think talking about that, a lot of people are able to connect. But then also on the other hand, people also come to me because they are like, okay, you are our source of information. So being able to accurately convey to them what's going on is super important. And I use social media to do that. I think the other thing as well is,

I speak English in a way that's very understandable. I don't speak it with lots of legalese. I want people to understand me and I think a lot of people connect with that.

Pankaj Raval (13:26)
Yeah, absolutely. No, mean, it's so true. You're definitely unique when it comes to a lawyer and how you've marketed using social media and also educated. I don't think it's just marketing. What was it about? social media come, creation, did it come naturally to you or is this something that you knew that you wanted to focus on and really go all in and on early on in your career?

Daven Ghandi (13:45)
Honestly, no, it was the pandemic. With COVID happened, my brother is a huge content creator back in Malaysia and Australia. And so he garnered about 600,000, 700,000 followers. And I was like, you know what, let me just try out. Let me just try and put content out there and see if people resonate with it. And so it was just like, you know, nothing to do with during the pandemic. I was like, let me put out some videos. And then people started following me and people started being really interested in my story and all of that. And I think...

Fast forward to when I started my own law firm in 2023, another content creator also reached out to me. And he's also an attorney, also South Asian. And so he was like, hey, let's get together. Let's try and figure out how we can market ourselves in a way that we can also help grow our businesses. And so that kind of started that, OK, let me be purposeful in my content so that I am able to also build a larger clientele.

Pankaj Raval (14:39)
amazing. And you've been consistent. I see a lot, you put a lot of content out there. And I think something about you too is you really share personal stories, right? You really connect, I the viewer. And recently, if you don't mind us getting into it, you said you were kind of now being attacked for some of the things you've said. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened how you reacted to that?

Daven Ghandi (15:00)
Yeah, it's messages that, so I have an attorney currently handling it, so I may not be able to speak too much about it. But what happened was because of the content that I put out there, people were harassing me, leaving reviews on my Google page, know, negative reviews, and even creating fake names, like using my mother's name as somebody who left a negative review, and then sending messages to my law firm, you know, saying faggot, saying stop.

Pankaj Raval (15:05)
Okay, sure.

Daven Ghandi (15:25)
stop harassing Donald Trump, those kinds of things. it was just a lot. yeah, it was really bad. And so what I decided to do was like, you know what, how do I turn this around? Because I was, I didn't know where to go or what to do. And decided, you know what, let me be vulnerable on social And so I did it. And the amount of support and love that I received from the community was so impactful.

Sahil (15:25)
Wow.

Terrible.

Daven Ghandi (15:50)
It really helped me kind of regain, you know, regain composure and keep doing the work that I'm doing.

Pankaj Raval (15:57)
Yeah, amazing. Thank you for that because I think one, there's probably not enough lawyers being vulnerable online and even in the practice. So I think to show people that you can be vulnerable and still do a great job defending your clients and be an advocate, it definitely breaks the mold and I think is really important people to see because I don't think there's enough of that. And these are real issues. are real, people's lives are impacted and that...

Sahil (16:03)
Right.

Pankaj Raval (16:22)
We're also human just like anyone else when we get challenging how do you navigate that? But I think you did a great job turning something that's really negative, challenging into a positive for you that you're able to reach a wider audience about. So that's amazing.

Daven Ghandi (16:36)
Thank you.

Sahil (16:37)
And that's not your only foray into the arts. We understand that you also have a children's book. And so you're a very creative person. It's very rare to have that quality in an attorney to be both so creative and to have logical side that's necessary for law. So tell us about the children's book. And I'd love to hear about your storytelling journey. Like how did you discover your voice?

Pankaj Raval (16:50)
Yeah.

Daven Ghandi (17:01)
Yeah, so the book is not out yet. We are still in the process of finishing up with copy editing and so we're going into the illustration aspect right now but it should be out sometime in the next year is done and so that's what I'm really excited about. I started this book actually in 2018. It actually came from my

lived experience in Guatemala. you earlier I said my visa expired at one point, my employee couldn't sponsor me, I had to leave the country. I decided to go to Latin America, to Central America, to Guatemala, to actually understand what it's like for my clients. And so I lived there for four months, really just experience what my clients are, I mean, obviously not to the extent that they have lived, but to kind of understand their journeys and why they come to the United States. And so doing that, and then

Pankaj Raval (17:34)
⁓

Daven Ghandi (17:46)
realizing that during the 2016 to 2020 period there was so much negativity also about immigrants that I wanted to put something out there that kind of educated the public but I always say it's best to teach people when they are young and so that's where the idea of writing a children's book came about.

And so took some classes in creative writing and decided to just write. And so it was a lot of like, okay, I had to do lots of pauses just because at one point I was like, okay, well, we have a new administration. Will this not work anymore? And then last, well, this year happened and I was like, okay, it's time to pick back my pen and finish it. So we finished it this year.

The goal is to get it into curriculums all over the United States so that can go and speak in classes, really just talk lives of children, immigrants, but specifically immigrant children who are navigating the process and coming to America.

Sahil (18:38)
So what are the themes that you want your readers to take away? What are the lessons you want people to learn?

Daven Ghandi (18:43)
Yeah, so it's based off two birds that represent two young children coming to America from Guatemala. And it's about brotherhood because they are always relying on each other. It's about the struggles that they have faced throughout the journey to the United States, like the treacherous journey of going through rivers and forests and not eating and...

perhaps even being attacked by traffickers. And then coming to the United States, I think the idea of it was I wanted to end the story when they got to the United States. But then I decided to dig a little bit deeper and talk about their lives in the United States. It's not always that Golden Gate that has been envisioned by people. Sometimes they come here.

and then they are put into detention centers and treated like criminals and I wanted to really highlight that and the legal processes behind it but in a way that's palatable but also easily understood by mass public. So I think it's more just wanting the readers to really understand

what immigrants go through and that immigrants are not just headlines, that they are actual voices, they are actual people with their own stories.

Pankaj Raval (19:49)
Yeah, that's beautiful. was gonna ask, I mean, is there one thing, like, what's a common misconception you hear about immigrants that you would like to rectify or to correct?

Daven Ghandi (19:57)
thing want a misconception, you know, I think there's just so much out there that...

If I had to pick one, at least the most basic one, I think it's the idea that immigrants are coming here to take people's jobs. Legally speaking, that's the hardest thing to do. When my employer was sponsoring my card, he had to do this entire process that took two and a half years. And he had to show that there are no equally qualified US workers to do that position, to do that job.

And so to say that immigrants are coming to America to take your jobs, it's not really both ends, Like on one end of the spectrum where it is the professional jobs, employees really have to take a lot of effort to even hire a foreign worker.

On the other hand, where immigrants are working in fields and all of that, in fields and factories, those are not easy jobs. Those are jobs that really take up so much time and energy that now what's happening with this administration is when they started deporting everyone, they decided to put a pause on deporting people who are working in the farms and factories because they realize that Americans are not really wanting those jobs.

Pankaj Raval (21:08)
Fascinating, What is one book that you've found that has shaped your outlook on business or life the most? Is there one book that you can point to?

Daven Ghandi (21:17)
You know, I've been reading so much self, I guess, business books. I think at the end of the day, it's one thing that, Pankaj, we both were part of this program, the MLA. And so what Sam had said is better than perfect has always stuck with me from the very beginning. I think it's just the idea that I just have to do it.

Pankaj Raval (21:29)
Yeah.

Daven Ghandi (21:39)
And the more I do it, the better I become, the more comfortable I become. And that's really been my motivating motto or slogan that I've held onto since 2023 when I first heard about it.

Pankaj Raval (21:50)
is better than perfect. I do love that, yeah. I think it's an important mindset to have when, especially being an entrepreneur, right? Because I think it's very easy as a lawyer, entrepreneur, to get stuck in trying to perfectionism, but to get it done and to ship it rather than constantly think about it makes so much sense and such a valuable piece of advice for entrepreneurs, for business owners, for anyone, navigating the legal system, yeah, absolutely.

Sahil (22:12)
Actually, on that note, so our listeners are primarily entrepreneurs, business owners, investors. and we like to offer some practical advice, practical guidance in this new climate. Being someone who's on the forefront of immigration law, if you were advising an entrepreneur today who might be looking to hire someone who's an immigrant or raise capital from outside the US,

What are some changes in the law or changes in any kind of regulation or the climate that would help to guide that entrepreneur? And what are the things from an immigration perspective that person should look out for and take advantage of?

Daven Ghandi (22:49)
So I think there are many ways to answer that question. really depends. So I just recently, a client of mine from Croatia, he started a York and he hired me to help him navigate bringing his company from the UK to the US. And so for him as a

business person setting up the company was not an issue. The immigration process not that bad. I think right now what's going on is with this current administration, one thing we are noticing a lot of is that they are issuing a lot of requests for evidence. So what that means is when you apply for an immigration process or immigration application, USCIS will take their time to review it.

Right now we are getting lots of boilerplate templates basically saying, okay, you submitted XYZ, it doesn't meet the criteria, submit more documents. And then they'll ask for things that have already been submitted. So it's a lot of extra work. And so when hiring an attorney, knowing also that you will probably have to take into account the additional work that the attorney has to do. And then on the other hand, say this, which is that employment-based immigration, especially the green card process takes about

twice longer than it used to be. So in the past it was like maybe a year and a half for you to get your green card. Now it's taking close to three years or even longer for that green card process. So if you're looking to hire somebody for the immigrant visa or the green card, you want to start as soon as possible. The other thing also is besides the green card, a lot of times employers want to sponsor people temporarily on a non-immigrant visa. This allows that foreign talent

come into the company and work with them for maybe up to six years, say on the H1B visa. Knowing that that's an option, especially the usual method is employers will hire a foreign worker for under the H1B and then after three years they'll start the green card process. The good thing is anyone on an H1B they can only work for the employer. So I tell my employer clients, hey look you have somebody who's going to be loyal to you and they're going to bring so much

experience and outside your industry. So shy away from hiring that foreign talent because nine out of ten times they are going to benefit you and you're going to get somebody who's going to be with you at least for three years if not more. So that's what I would say. I guess just in general whenever somebody asks me about the immigration process I always tell them there is the

Pankaj Raval (25:02)
Yeah.

Daven Ghandi (25:09)
Permanent residence route, and then there is also the non-immigrant route. The non-immigrant route allows somebody to come to the United States, work for a company or be in the United States for a number of time, a period, and therefore a period of time. And then the visa, the green card, that allows somebody to live in the United States and work here permanently. So different criteria for each, employees usually want to start with a non-immigrant visa. And then...

Pankaj Raval (25:27)
I see.

Daven Ghandi (25:33)
One advice to all employers is if you are thinking of hiring a foreign employee, definitely seek an immigration attorney because that process is just almost impossible to navigate on your

Pankaj Raval (25:44)
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's great advice. And yeah, we definitely encourage that to anyone who's looking to navigate the process, figure out how to do it. I had to do that many years ago, too. I had someone working for me from Taiwan and I was trying to sponsor her. I learned a lot about the H-1B visa process. We didn't get the lottery. weren't selected the first time, so we had to figure out other ways to navigate it. it was, yeah, there's a lot to do. There's a lot of nuances and what you need to provide in terms of documentation.

So having someone who knows what they're doing, who's done it before is really, really helpful. insights you'd like people to have as we wrap this up about the immigration process, about where we are in the world today, how to keep the faith, maybe something positive.

Daven Ghandi (26:26)
I guess it's simply that immigrants are coming to America in search of a better life and that these were the same journeys that a lot of our ancestors and forefathers took to come to America and just celebrating diversity of thought, of culture, of people and learning to live with one another is so important these days.

I think that's the one positive thought that I can leave, your listeners, it's that immigrants enrich the fabric of American life. And so be kind, be everyone, but also to immigrants because right now we are, I guess, the target of America, or the American administration.

Pankaj Raval (27:02)
Well, yeah, thank you so much. How can people find you if they want to get in touch?

Daven Ghandi (27:06)
Yeah, so on social media, I'm DaveAndTheLawyer on TikTok, Instagram. page is Kaza Law, so it's K-A-Z-A. And we are on Instagram, Facebook, I'm on TikTok, DaveAndTheLawyer. So yeah, and on YouTube, sorry, that's I was trying to say. YouTube, TikTok, all social media. It's DaveAndTheLawyer slash Kaza Law.

Pankaj Raval (27:17)
Okay.

wonderful. Thank you so much, Daven, for sharing your story and your wisdom. I think what stands out most is how you've turned your journey into both advocacy and art. Law on one side, storytelling on the other.

For those listening who want to connect with you, learn more about your work, please go to his website, DavenTheLawyer Instagram, and I'm sure if you just search Daven Gandhi online, you'll be able to find him in a lot of different places. He's very, very well positioned online to find him. And if you have immigration questions, if you have concerns, if you need help with your immigration, the process, Daven is in New York, but it can help people nationally.

or internationally. Immigration is a federal law, so lawyers can help people in all 50 thank you all again to Letters of Intent. I'm Pankaj Raval, founder of Carbon Law Group, and I'm joined by my co-host Sahil Chaudry, corporate lawyer here, and Devan Gandhi today of Kaza Law. Thanks again, and see you guys next time.